46 replies to this topic

[KevinKorell]

Frank, RRon has been a member of our group for as long as I can remember, back into the days when this group was on the Prodigy site. I've read his reports, which were done on an annual basis as RRon and his family took the Michigan service trains to Chicago and then the SOUTHWEST CHIEF to Arizona. I know RRon loves trains, enough to take his family along in first class service in both directions on such a long trip. RRon did legitimately see a downturn in the service he received, and should have expected, for his first class fare. At the same time, the fares tended to rise, thus giving him even less value for his money. I can definitely sympathize with him, as I would not want to throw my money out either. Each year his reports have gotten worse, but that is because the service got worse. He was gracious enough to share those feelings with us. We enjoy hearing reports from all our members. While we as railfans hope that everyone has a positive experience, we realize that there will always be some negative reports. RRon should not be called a "Drama Queen" because he had such a bad experience. Not only has service deteriorated from what anyone should expect from his years of rail travel, but also he went through a big change in his personal life and wanted to impress his new wife and win her over to taking the train. Amtrak failed him and his fellow passengers. Granted this was not a disaster on the level of the train crashes you mentioned, but for him it was a personal disaster. As somebody who regularly follows trains, RRon of course knew of the possibility his train might be late. Thirteen hours is a bit extreme, no matter whose fault it was. He has every right to exhibit his frustration here as he told the truth about his experiences.

[ICGsteve]

I agree Kevin but I have a feeling that Ron's frustration goes deeper. His experiance reminds me of a flight I was on From Munich to NY in the last days of PanAm. This was a few months before they stopped all service as I recall. A passenger was upset about some part of the service, I can't remember what, he started with the closest attendent who called over the chief Att. This guy listened for a minute then said that he could not fix the problem. When the passenger continued to complain the chief raised his voice and said (para-phrase) "You can write to our headquarters in NY if you don't like it, but PanAm is bankrupst and does not have any money to do that kind of thing so don't expect anything". The passenger stood there in shock. In this statement was both agreement that the airline had failed, as well as a complete lack of willingness on the part of the employee to look at this situation from the passengers point of view. The concept of the employee being on hand and paid by the company to serve the passenger was turned on its head, the passenger was expected to serve the employee by not talking about the fact that it was clear to all that the airline had failed. The chief had a duty to represent the company and to serve the passengers as best he could even if all he could do was sooth and stroke the ego of the passenger, but instead would do nothing once he come that the conclusion that company's situation made it impossible for him to do what the passenger wanted. I think that the paper plates and bad food is a big deal because at the very time when the Amtrak employees should have been listening and soothing if they could do nothing else, they instead vanished and lowered their service so that they would have to deal with the passengers less, because they knew that the passengers where upset. I know that it must be frustrating for employees to know that AMtrak had failed, and to know that if they so much as gave away cokes as ammends that they would hear about it from the company. They still should have carried on as best they could. The question for managment is why is it that the on board personel, as reps for the company, have so limited ability to do for the passenger when the company has failed to deliever timely transport? Don't tell me that AMtrak can not afford it. On the train it is the passenger and his experiance that is important, not management's difficulties in delivering that service. Most people do not expect a lot, just some basic respect for the passenger who has been failed by AMtrak. Why can't Amtrak do that?

[AlanB]

I know that it must be frustrating for employees to know that AMtrak had failed, and to know that if they so much as gave away cokes as ammends that they would hear about it from the company.

Sliding slightly off topic here, you can forget about the employees hearing about it Steve. They won't get a lecture from their supervisor.

If the cafe attendant can't balance his/her inventory and cash with what they were originally issued, he/she has two days to pay Amtrak back for the missing inventory. Failure to do so results in suspension. This policy is of course due to the few bad apples over the years that used Amtrak as their own cash cow, so now all employees must endure the harsh rules.

However I do think that there should be some provision whereby the LSA could call into headquarters and obtain permission to hand out free sodas in the case of a horribly delayed train.

[frank]

Kevin, Pardon me, my hubris was showing. Drama Queen was a bit brusk on my part, I apologize. However, I still stand by the argument that anyone boarding a train has to acknowledge that significant delays can and most likely will occur, especially on the long distance routes. And that fact cannot be considered in an argument that Amtrak's service is going downhill. This leads to the statement: "Again, they (Amtrak) have shown that Dollars from Freight are a priority over passengers......" You know better than the next person that Amtrak doesn't call the shots on freight vs. passenger priority. I can hear the NS dispatcher...."Let's see, should I let this freight carrying $25 million dollars worth of Silverados that have to be in Jersey by the 4th by contract, or do I let this Amtrak train with 150 people through first? Hmmmm. I'll admit that these days people expect china instead of paper for dining service, but it's sometimes hard to know the reasons for these instances. It could be that supplies didn't show up in time. It's easy to instantly jump to the conclusion that the dining staff is lazy. These comments aren't meant to be directed at Ron, just as fuel for thought. As for poor service form any individual on Amtrak, if you write customer relations @ Amtrak.com in the contact section, or dial Julie @ 1-USARAIL and hit 0 0 then ext. 2818, you'll be directed to someone who will listen to the problem and try and solve it. I've been told that each instance, whether it's an absent sleeping car attendent or a grouchy dining car worker that is brought up is given a file number and reported. And enough of these will cause a reaction. The only way to correct these problems is to contact customer relations, as these issues have nothing to do with Amtrak's financial situation, but rather with Amtrak's labor relations. And now this is to Ron, you probably know this as you've been riding the rails for a long while from what Kevin has mentioned, if you contact these folks and explain your delay and the repercussions, you will be compensated with vouchers for future rail travel. And if you missed reservations whether car, airline motel etc., they'll work with you there as well. I've found these folks to be above board and seriously interested in maintaining a happy ridership. It would be a shame to see you give up on Amtrak when I for one believe that Amtrak will be turning a corner sooner or later thanks to David Gunn. And last but not least, believe it or not, I've been told that Mr. Gunn reads every single piece of e- or snail mail sent to him. Keep it short I'm told, or an assistant will highlight the major points, but he does respond to every single piece of mail. This says an awful lot about the man, as it doesn't take much to believe that he's got an awful lot of things he could be doing otherwise. Happy Rails, Frank

[ICGsteve]

And last but not least, believe it or not, I've been told that Mr. Gunn reads every single piece of e- or snail mail sent to him. Keep it short I'm told, or an assistant will highlight the major points, but he does respond to every single piece of mail. This says an awful lot about the man, as it doesn't take much to believe that he's got an awful lot of things he could be doing otherwise.

And should be doing instead, for instance building enough political pull that Amtrak could apply some pressure to the railroads who continue to give Amtrak the shaft. The railroads get a lot of favors from congress, primarly in holding off regulators and getting mega bucks written into the tax code. A few calls from the right Congressmen to the CEO's of the railroads would get Amtrak trains priority on the systems, but that does not happen. No CEO would put that cushy relationship in danger over a few Amtrak trains a day.

[MotownRRon]

Frank,

However, I still stand by the argument that anyone boarding a train has to acknowledge that significant delays can and most likely will occur, especially on the long distance routes. 

In all of my years riding the CHIEF, I cannot remember ever being more than 2 hours late. Passengers should not EXPECT to have significant delays, otherwise they should not depend on Amtrak as transportation.

"Again, they (Amtrak) have shown that Dollars from Freight are a priority over passengers...

You have misunderstood my original post. I was in NO WAY referring to freight interference, as NONE of our delays were due to freight interference. I was referring to the freight at the rear of our own train that caused our original delay. The only delays over an hour I have experienced on the CHIEF have been due to freight issues (adding and removing frieght cars at their end points, etc).

I'll admit that these days people expect china instead of paper for dining service, but it's sometimes hard to know the reasons for these instances.  It could be that supplies didn't show up in time.  It's easy to instantly jump to the conclusion that the dining staff is lazy.

I asked about paper the first morning, and the server informed me that all breakfasts and lunches on the CHIEF are now served on paper, plus there was no equipment failure in the dishwasher.

I will write to Gunn, but I don't know if my wife will ever try it again - at least on an overnight train. It took me a year of telling her about the fine service, the beautiful scenery, and the wonderful food on the train to get her to try it, and I was totally let down and completely embarrassed. I was very sad between Gallup and Flagstaff, and she asked me what was wrong. I replied that I know that this is probably the last time I will be riding on the CHIEF, and I had such high expectations from this trip - to convince her of how wonderful rail travel was. Instead, we got poor service in the diner, we had to put away our won beds both mornings despite the call button being on for over 2 hours each day, and poor service in the diner. That coupled with NONE of the scenery I had promised her along the rockies due to our extreme tardiness, and the fact that it was almost $500.00 more than flying for the one way trip was just too much. I knew she menat it when she said she would never do this again, and I frekly could not blame her. I would feel the same if it were my first trip. That one way trip cost me over a week's pay, and I just cannot afford to throw my hard earned money (I am a firefighter/paramedic) away on poor service and what you say shouold be expected significant delays. I have riden VIA when we had a significant delay due to a freight derailment and we were rerouted through Banff instead of Jasper. The crew constantly kept a positive attitude, and even bought a glass of wine for those of us that were not bussed to Jasper. THAT showed customer service. Amtrak could learn from them. I just hope that my gut feeling is wrong, and that I just might be able to talk her into another trip if Gunn comps the entire trip with a deluxe room (what we had on this trip), but i seriously doubt even that woueld be enough. Time will tell.

[AlanB]

Frank,

However, I still stand by the argument that anyone boarding a train has to acknowledge that significant delays can and most likely will occur, especially on the long distance routes. 

In all of my years riding the CHIEF, I cannot remember ever being more than 2 hours late. Passengers should not EXPECT to have significant delays, otherwise they should not depend on Amtrak as transportation.

Actually guys, the error in that statement isn't "EXPECT" or "significant", the error in Frank's original statement is the word "trains". He should have said "that anyone traveling by public transportation should expect delays."

Delays of the magnitude that Rron experienced are not unique to Amtrak. I've personally waited in O'Hare for over 6 hours, when my connecting flight was cancelled due to a mechanical problem and the follow-up flight was delayed arriving into O'Hare. Even tonight here in NYC, there are average delays of around 90 minutes at two of our airports, thanks to the fog, wind, & rain. Some flights have even been cancelled, so for those passengers delays will be much longer than 90 minutes.

Plus I'm sure that we've all seen those horror stories on the news, when an airport gets snowed in. This past December here in NY we had people who were delayed by two days. Several people were even forced to cancel their entire vacations, since they either missed their ship or no longer had enough time to enjoy their vacation.

Yes I will admit that those delays were due to the weather and not mechanical issues, but my point is simple one can and must anticipate that any vacation or trip will not go exactly as planned. Passengers on any mode of tranportation must EXPECT that they can be delayed.

[ICGsteve]

THe way I read you Ron it is not the delay and the problems that got you, it is that Amtrak broke its fiduciary obligations to you. You trusted that managment would do its best to get your train to its destination on time, they did not. You trusted that the employees would do their best to make your trip enjoyable for yourself and your wife, they did not. When you sold your wife on this trip you placed some faith in Amtrak to deliver the product they advertise, but they did not try. Amtrak trying and failing short is one experiance, Amtrak not caring about your trip enough to do its best is another altogether. Am I close?

[frank]

Ok, Ok, I'm trying here, but I'm going to whip out the Drama Queen label again if things don't change pretty soon, I'm sorry, my hubris is showing again! The fact that one is subjected to "boring Kansas" instead of Colorado and New Mexico during the daylight......this does not fit my description of a rail disaster! Come on now! One replier posted that third world nations might accept being 13 hours late.....Hey! Third world nations accept hundreds tossed into a ravine, as I stated earlier in this thread, as a necessary evil of rail travel. I guess we just view these things differently, and the twain, or train in this context, shall never meet. I have to admit that I'm a little amused by the reference to Viarail by Ron. I happened to talk my newlywed bride back in the 80's into a Vancouver to Banff trip by Viarail as a honeymoon excursion. She was excited, and had never traveled by rail. The service was so bad as to be laughable! We were told by the crew that we had to leave the dome car after 10:00 pm, as it was reserved by the crew. They were smoking pot and enjoying the view all to themselves. They actually escorted us out! We returned to our expensive bedroom for the remainder of the night. Now let's look at this thing closely. You have expectations. They are not met. Way late, yeah, call or write and get compensation. Not the view you were expecting? Get over it. Paper plates instead of china? Get over it. I too have traveled many a mile over Amtrak and her predecessor's. I'm not interested in a urine match here. But what I am interested in is a discussion of whether or not Amtrak is failing, going down the tubes, because of a train here or there being late, even way late. Or because a sleeper car attendant wasn't available when pinged. I was about to write that rail travel is at best unpredictable, but I caught myself. Rail travel is at best an experience that is unequalled in the history of man. Who cares if it's unpredictable? Remember, there are only two rails between you and your destination, ok, maybe four. It's not like the airlines who have unlimited airspace. But unlimited downward exposure. This is an argument that will never be won. I love the rails, but I will not excuse inadequacy or ineffiiciency displayed by Amtrak. But I will argue that bureaucracy is a very tough nut to crack, but I believe that it is cracking. Peace, Frank

[Lyle McBride]

MotownRRon, your experience was quite a bit more disastrous than any I've had with Amtrak, but your conclusions about the cause are the same as mine (and it's not just the past two years, it's been going on forever!): there essentially is NO management. Some staff are conscientious and motivated and do a great job; others are not and don't. Your enjoyment of Amtrak travel depends entirely on the luck of the draw. Some toilets and cars are clean; others are filthy. Some diners have good food and service; others are intolerable. Some sleeper attendants take great care of you; others couldn't care less. Some conductors are pleasant; some are unbelievably rude. Some operating crews get later and later; sometimes after a crew change a remarkable amount of time gets made up. Every Amtrak employee is a law unto himself--essentially there is NO management. Is this situation inherent in the fact that Amtrak is a government bureaucracy? I don't know, but it needs to change if Amtrak is ever to have any popular support. If the passengers hate it, who will love it????