42 replies to this topic

[KevinKorell]

Here is the previous discussion, which I may build upon or repeat in this process.

We're a little under 3 months as of this writing until this summer's event, OTOL Southeast RailFest (SERF) 2011. Except for any necessary last minute refining, things are pretty much set. Hopefully those who have not yet booked their hotels or travel will do so soon, before the prices go up or the desired trips become unavailable.

What about August 2011?

An eager regular participant has asked me what's in store for the future. One possibility would be August of this year, 4 or 5 weeks after everyone is home from SERF. You may recall last year at this time we did an all-Long Island Railroad fest (with a little subway thrown in on Friday). If enough people are game, we could do another Request-type fest, somewhere else on the east coast. Perhaps a 2-day event in Boston or the Baltimore/Washington area? Or, we could ride the ACES train and combine it with some other activities in NJ (maybe the HBLRT extension in Bayonne?) or Philly since ACES no longer operates in the winter. It does remain to be seen whether people are able to meet so close to SERF, taking into consideration time off work, finances, etc.

January 2012

On the topic of the east coast, I'm almost sure that the January 2012 Request Fest will be in the Philadelphia area. Within a few months I'll release a few scenarios which folks can then vote on. Those who attended the Fests we had in Philly in 2001, 2004, 2005, and 2006 know basically what those might be (of course they would involve Chestnut Hill, Norristown, and Media!). Or, it could be an all Regional Rail option, sort of like what we did in 2004 with the ex-Reading lines hopefully without the too-tight connection in Jenkintown. All lines are candidates, but we must keep in mind the restrictions of the Cynwyd Line (weekdays only), Thorndale Line (no Sundays beyond Malvern), and Newark, DE (weekday rush hours only beyond Wilmington).

Rockies, & a possible NoCal return?

And that brings us to the larger trips during the summer. Herein lies the problem. They have all been planned for the future because the cities involved have lines under construction. Common sense indicates waiting until these projects are complete, so we don't miss them and have to return. Problem is, most of the currently planned Future Fests will not have anything significant coming online by the summer of 2012. Salt Lake City looks good with 2 new LRT lines (Mid-Jordan and West Valley) starting this summer, joining the current University and North-South (Sandy) Lines, but the Airport and Draper LRT lines are still respectively under construction and under development. FrontRunner North to Odgen & Pleasant Valley is in place, but FrontRunner South to Orem & Provo is still a few years away. The other problem with SLC remains the horrible eastbound calling time of the California Zephyr, now 3:30 AM. A possible better solution would be to stopover there on some future westbound trip to California, and then leave westbound 24 or 48 hours later. 11:30 PM is more palatable than 3:30 AM! So it would be beneficial to wait until there's more to do in both SLC and California that would warrant a return trip.

So the Rockies RailFest as currently presented most likely will change significantly, including its being totally separated from Denver. Denver, in fact, would work better as an eastbound stopover since the CZ calling times are better in that direction. If we wait until BART extends to Warm Springs, then Berryessa, and then eventually San Jose and Santa Clara, we already have quite an event on our hands! It's looking less likely that there would be much more to do in the Bay Area given the recent negative news about SMART... so more time could be spent on stopovers in both directions. Sacramento comes to mind as well with its piecemeal openings of the new Green Line, but it could be 2019 or 2020 before the line gets to the Airport. Might be worth a stopover there too.

The Big Three

Looking at the Big Three RaiFests currently planned for the future, 2 of the 3 wouldn't be possible in 2012. Texas RailFest (TRF) is dependent on completion of DART's Orange Line all the way to DFW Airport, and the extension of the DART Blue Line to Rowlett. The new Green Line and the upcoming A-Train (opening this June) would give us something new to ride, but waiting 2 or 3 more years gives us much more. Hopefully along with the Orange Line the Las Colinas people mover will be expanded and improved so we could ride that as well. TRF would also include Houston, but so far there isn't much movement towards anything other than the initial Metro Red Line segment being available to ride.

Then there's the second Eagle RailFest (ERF), which would take in Austin (both the MetroRail DMU line and the LStar commuter rail line to San Antonio), a side round trip to Oklahoma City on the Heartland Flyer, and a 24-hour stopover in Little Rock to ride their RiverRail trolley. This is dependent on LStar, so it's a few years off. And Little Rock, it should be noted, has an Amtrak station nowhere near the trolleys or the city's hotels, so cabs or city bus must come into play.

The third of the Big Three is Chief RailFest (CRF). This one currently has Albuquerque for the RailRunner, a trip on the Missouri RiverRunner, and a revisit to St. Louis to take in the Cross County segment of the Metrolink LRT that wasn't yet available to us back in 2005. Time could be added to either of the Chicago pass-throughs to do things there. It'll be a long time before we do a "Chicago Request Fest", because there's so much we haven't yet done as a group.

Back to: What's happening in Summer 2012?

So this still doesn't answer the question of what to do in the Summer of 2012. Of the Big Three, the only one with everything in place is CRF. We'll make that Idea #1.

Idea #2 would be a watered down version of the Midwest RailFest. Why water it down? As currently engineered, this one includes a visit to the Twin Cities. Northstar commuter rail is in operation, as is the Hiawatha LRT line. But there are a few other factors here. One is that the current Midway Amtrak Station is isolated between the 2 cities. Thus to get to Minneapolis proper for riding those lines (as well as hotels) would require a late night cab or city bus ride after arrival of the westbound Empire Builder, and an early morning dose of the same thing before the eastbound Empire Builder departure. By sometime next year, Amtrak is supposed to begin stopping in downtown St. Paul, which is great for proximity to hotels, but even worse with respect to our reasons for visiting (namely Northstar and Hiawatha LRT). Now it's a longer bus ride or cab ride, unless Midway Station remains open in addition to St. Paul Union Depot. The anecdote to these issues hopefully comes into play in 2014, when the Central LRT line opens. Then there will be light rail service to both the current and future Amtrak stations. And we get another rail line to ride as well. So bottom line, the Twin Cities would be several years off at least.

So this possibility would be to disconnect Minneapolis from Chicago, and just spend time at the latter, doing things we haven't yet. That list is dependent on what we ultimately accomplish there this summer. Besides remaining CTA and METRA lines, there's also the Airport Transportation System at O'Hare Airport, and the streetcars in Kenosha, WI (latter easiest done on a Sunday based on the METRA schedule). Downside of this: It robs our resident Chicagoans of Amtrak travel!

For 2012, idea #3 is the North Carolina/Virginia RailFest. This would feature light rail in both Charlotte and Norfolk (which should open sometime this year), as well as the unique equipment of Amtrak's Piedmont. As currently put together, it's just 4 days long including travel from and to Northeastern cities. I'm looking at somehow adding something to this to make it more worthwhile for a summer trip. Being tossed around are possibly Savannah, GA to ride that city's streetcars, and/or Jacksonville, FL to ride the SkyTrain. Both Savannah and Jacksonville do suffer from the same distance issues mentioned earlier regarding Amtrak stations in Little Rock and (currently) Minneapolis/St. Paul. If it's not convenient to transfer in Richmond to or from the other trains, then it may require going back up to Washington, DC, and one overnight there before going south again.

Beyond 2012

And there you have the options for 2012. Going forward to 2013, 2014, 2015, and beyond is again highly dependent on what becomes available to us. Obviously with the above 3 ideas on the table, we could be set for a few years until the longer trips become more possible and sensible.

[KevinKorell]

I'm looking at somehow adding something to this to make it more worthwhile for a summer trip. Being tossed around are possibly Savannah, GA to ride that city's streetcars, and/or Jacksonville, FL to ride the SkyTrain.

I was able to work something out involving Jacksonville. It would involve going there on the Silver Meteor first, then taking the Silver Star to Raleigh, and then proceeding from there as indicated before on the Piedmont to Charlotte. This would eliminate a stay in Raleigh, but it would result in a very long day in Jacksonville (11-1/2 hours). There would be an overnight trip on the Silver Meteor south from Northeast cities to JAX, and then the next evening, an overnight trip on the Silver Star JAX to RGH. So net addition to this event would be one day, making for a total of 5 days. Here is how it looks.

At first glance, Savannah won't work as well as Jacksonville. Calling times in SAV are not as friendly as JAX, especially northbound #92 which leaves at 1:30 AM. Savannah has something that Jacksonville doesn't have, and that's a third Amtrak frequency to/from the north. But the Palmetto gets in too late in the evening to do much, and likewise the northbound leaves too soon. Either way, one would have to spend a full day in town plus at least one night in a hotel. And on the converse, Jacksonville has something Savannah doesn't, and that's bus service between Amtrak and downtown. JAX has 2 different routes; SAV has none. So it's taxi or long hike.

Obviously this is still too short for a summer event, so ideas on how to expand it are welcome. There's not much else in the Southeastern states to append to this plan.

[AlanB]

Kevin, While the last several years have seen longer summer fests, I can recall some in the earlier years that only went 3 or 4 days. So I'm not sure that you need to stand on your head trying to figure out how to turn a 5 day fest into a 6 or 7 day fest. This is not to suggest that if something comes along that does lend itself to an extra day that we shouldn't consider it; just that I also don't know that you need to go crazy looking for that something. All that said, one thought that popped into my mind; would it be conducive to take that regional from Norfolk only as far as Fredericksburg, overnight there and ride VRE from there back to DC? I'm too tired to go looking right now, but IIRC Fredericksburg doesn't lend itself to a same day turn on the VRE, unlike the other VRE branch and therefore the group hasn't done that. Or if hotel choices at FBG are too poor, could we overnight in Richmond, catch a semi-early regional to FBG, and then still catch VRE back to DC? Doing so would also avoid the rather ugly calling times at Philly & NY on train #66, while getting you to a 6 day fest.

[KevinKorell]

Alan, the first weekday Regional departure, #86, from Richmond leaves at 6 AM and arrives FBG 7 AM. It then would be possible to catch one of two subsequent inbound VRE departures to Washington. However think of how early one will need to arise and catch a cab to RVR station for a 6 AM train.

FBG is one of those places that has many different hotels, but they are almost all located out in clusters by I-95 exits, a few miles drive from and to Amtrak/VRE.

So both Fredericksburg and Richmond-Staples Mill share the problem with no hotels within a few blocks of the station. Richmond Main Street could be a suggestion, as #66 does stop there. But as you know continuing onward from there service is limited to only one other northbound train (#94 weekdays or #194 weekends) every day.

There is a same-day turn possible on the VRE Fredericksburg Line, but one direction has to be Amtrak. If one takes VRE #301 from WAS at 12:55 PM, it gets to FBG 2:26 PM. Then at 3:39 PM, the northbound Carolinian #80 comes through and can deposit us anywhere between Washington and NY City at a reasonable time of the evening. To do that, one would have to get off Regional #66 in ALX or WAS, spend a night & next morning in the area, and then do the VRE/Carolinian turn that afternoon. Surely this can be worked in as well.

Even if we didn't add that, and you wished to keep your event time at 5 days, you could get off #66 in Washington, and take Acela the next day to New York, giving you a much nicer arrival time than 1:50 AM.

[AlanB]

Alan, the first weekday Regional departure, #86, from Richmond leaves at 6 AM and arrives FBG 7 AM. It then would be possible to catch one of two subsequent inbound VRE departures to Washington. However think of how early one will need to arise and catch a cab to RVR station for 6 AM train.

I was of course just spitballing at this late hour and not looking at schedules. But that would be ugly IMHO trying to do that.

FBG is one of those places that has many different hotels, but they are almost all located out in clusters by I-95 exists, a few miles drive from and to Amtrak/VRE.

Bummer!

There is a same-day turn possible on the VRE Fredericksburg Line, but one direction has to be Amtrak. If one takes VRE #301 from WAS at 12:55 PM, it gets to FBG 2:26 PM. Then at 3:39 PM, the northbound Carolinian #80 comes through and can deposit us anywhere between Washington and NY City at a reasonable time of the evening. To do that, one would have to get off Regional #66 in ALX or WAS, spend a morning in the area, and then do the VRE/Carolinian turn next afternoon. Surely this can be worked in as well.

This certainly has merit and would IMHO be a more than welcome solution to riding that line as a group and solving the issues of a short fest and a late night arrival in Philly/NY.

Even if we didn't add that, and you wished to keep your event time at 5 days, you could get off #66 in Washington, and take Acela the next day to New York, giving you a much nicer arrival time than 1:50 AM.

Something that I'd almost certainly consider if the group opted for the fest as currently outlined; but that's just a personal preference. And as I said earlier, I personally don't see having a shorter than normal fest as a huge problem/issue. But I would definitely be in favor of adding the DC/VRE plan to that which you've already laid out!

[BillMagee]

A suggestion for the Chief Rail Fest: Make St. Louis the homeward overnight rather than Chicago. The connection at KCY between the Chief (ar 7:24am) and the MRR (dp 8:15am) is iffy, at best. If a late Chief misses the morning MRR, then the only option is to wait at KCY until 4pm for the evening trip to STL. Since there is a later train from KCY to STL, Amtrak likely will not hold the morning MRR more than a few minutes for a late Chief. With the plan to move on to Chicago on the same day as departing KCY, the misconnect at KCY then compounds to a failed onward connection to CHI at STL requiring an unplanned overnight at STL and rebooking the onward leg to CHI for the next day. It also fouls any hotel reservations in Chigago which, depending on the terms of the reservation, could cause a loss of any deposit. In other words, if the Chief is late into KCY, the manure hits the fan blades for the rest of the plan. If an overnight is planned STL, with the onward trip to Chicago the next morning and same day connections at CHI to east coast trains, then a misconnect at KCY between the Chief and the MRR only results in the loss of the transit rides in St. Louis. The planned hotel stay in St. Louis is still good. The next day onward reservations from STL to CHI are still good. Plus, since STL through CHI to eastern destinations is continuous, an AGR award reservation could handle the trip, maybe including a roomette and meal on the Texas Eagle to CHI. Just a suggestion.

[KevinKorell]

Bill, Very good points indeed. I was under the impression that they made the #314 departure later to resume guaranteed connections from #4, but I guess a severely late #4 would pose a problem for a waiting #314 down the line as it meets other trains. When I get home I'll rework things (as you already have in advance!! ) for a STL stay instead of Chicago. The intent of this trip is more to get what still remains in STL rather than doing transit/commuter riding in CHI, which can eventually be accomplished on our various pass-throughs or on a distinct CHI visit as was one of my ideas. But you're right, we'd miss the STL transit riding because if we misconnect on the intended day, we can't pick it up the next day unless we go out very early in the morning before the Texas Eagle departure. And waiting until #304 means missing the eastward connections in CHI.

[KevinKorell]

Alan, 5-6 days isn't bad, though with VRE involved it becomes tricky given that segment has to be done on a weekday. Money saved on travel and hotels can be put towards longer trips in the future!

[AlanB]

Kevin, I fully agree that 5 to 6 days isn't bad. In fact, that was the first thing that I said. I was simply trying to give you ideas to make it longer, since that's what you asked for in your second post in this thread. If it doesn't work, no worries!

[KevinKorell]

Heck the 12 or 13 day Fests we had with NoCal, SoCal, and PNW over the past several years seem to have set the bar higher, so much that half that much seemed too short. And in reality, they all were just about 6 days if one excludes the cross country trips as I did for PNW. So what's 6 days for us would turn out to be longer for those who travel further to get there & home. The "Big Three" as outlined above, are all 6 to 7 days, but again that is Chicago to Chicago, as they don't include getting to or from CHI for East Coasters. Doing NC, VA, and the addition of JAX plus VRE (which is Virginia again) does bring it up to par with the others, only for those of us concentrated in the New York, New Jersey, Philly areas, our trips in getting to and from are much shorter (in fact included) in the 6 days. We still have the 3 options mentioned above on the table, and no decision is needed right away, but it's a topic we can even discuss in person this July.