Alan Burden
Member #69589, posted 09-11-01 12:48 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HaRRy,
No word on Amtrak service.

I can tell you that as of 11:30am all subway service within Manhattan has been stopped. Some reports say the outlying boroughs still have service, some reports say that their is no service.

New Jersey Transit is running trains only in a westbound direction from Penn NY, Penn Newark NJ, and from Hoboken, NJ. There is no eastbound service. All NJT buses in New Jersey continue to run, no buses run between NY and NJ.

I have heard confilicting reports regarding the LIRR and Metro North. Most saying that there is outbound service only, others saying there is no service.

Ferry service to NJ runs in an outbound direction only.

Buses continue to run north of 42nd street and in all of the outer boroughs.

All tunnels are closed. Most bridges are either closed or open in an outbound direction only.

Sections of the New Jersey Turnpike are closed.

Alan Burden
Member #69590, posted 09-11-01 01:17 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Still no word on Amtrak service, but all NE corridor trains after the 10:00am Metroliner #108 have no status at all. All trains prior to and including #108 show late arrivals, but don't indicate if they actually arrived. I did not check the Boston side.
Reports are now indicating the the George Washington Bridge is now closed in both directions. Earlier it was open in the outbound direction only.

Alan Burden
Member #69592, posted 09-11-01 01:37 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As of 1:30pm New Jersey Transit is now reporting that they have suspended all train service into New York's Penn station.

Alan Burden
Member #69596, posted 09-11-01 02:58 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mayor Rudy Guliani reports as of 2:50 all subways in the four outer boroughs are operating. Within Mahattan all of the letter routes are now running, however for some reason none of the numbered routes are working. Passengers will not be allowed to exit at any lower manhattan stations unless they can prove that they live near the station.
Metro North service was briefly interupted due to a bomb scare at Grand Central around 12:30. Service was restored outbound only about 30 minutes later. All passengers entering the terminal are being searched.

All Path service is suspended.

All major highways are closed approaching any part of NYC including the outer boroughs.

Alan Burden
Member #69597, posted 09-11-01 03:13 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As one would expect under the circumstances, different sources of news have conflicting reports.
Local NBC news is reporting that the letter line are not running due to power problems. They say that all number lines are running within Manhattan. They also report that trains are not stopping south of 14th street.

NBC is also reporting that limited service eastbound has been resumed at Penn by the LIRR. The LIRR is also reporting that they have limited service out of Brooklyn. In the westbound directions no passengers are being transported west of Jamaica.

Alan Burden
Member #69609, posted 09-11-01 04:12 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Current info as of 4:00pm.
NJT has restored very limited service outbound from New York. They also report that they have restored limited service in both directions on the Raritan, Northeast Corrider, and the North Jersey Coast line from Newark's Penn Station to the ending terminals of each line. There is still no bus service to and from NYC.

The LIRR continues to provide limited service outbound from Penn station. Passengers are being forced to line up outside and then are escorted in small group to a waiting train. There is no choice as to what train you get on. Any transfers must be made at Jamaica.

Metro North's entire system is now operating on a Saturday schedule. All southbound passengers must exit at a station before the boarder between the Bronx and Westchester County. Passengers can only go northbound between Grand Central and the Westchester boarder.

No changes are reported regarding subway service, since my last update.

Still no Path service.

The outbound George Washington Bridge has been reopened.

Alan Burden
Member #69613, posted 09-11-01 06:35 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As of 6:30pm hear is the current situation.

Unconfirmed report says Amtrak has restored limited service on the Northeast Corridor.

All three commuter railroads continue to run limited outbound service from NYC.

Still lots of conflicting reports as to which subway lines are running in Manhattan. All routes are reported to be operating in the outer bouroughs.

All NYC Transit buses in Manhattan will pick up passengers for free all night long.

Still no path service at all, even in New Jersey.

Almost all bridges except for lower Manhattan are now open to outbound traffic only. The Lincoln Tunnel has one lane only, not one tube, outbound. No trucks or vans are permitted, cars only.

Traffic on most major highways remain jammed. Most major roads are closed inbound long before you get near the city.

Alan Burden
Member #69616, posted 09-11-01 07:00 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As of 6:45pm.

All NYC subways, except the #3 line, are now running in Manhattan. Note that trains may skip stops in lower Manhattan, and even if they do stop passengers may not be allowed to disembark.

As I noted earlier all NYC MTA buses will pick up passengers in Manhattan for free all night. No word if this policy will be applied to the subways which are operating within Manhattan.

NJT is still reporting limited outbound service from both NY Penn and Hoboken terminal. No inbound (eastbound) service to either station. Only limited eastbound service to Newark’s Penn station.

There is still no Path service.

Alan Burden
Member #69619, posted 09-11-01 07:54 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The 7:45pm update.
Both Metro North and the LIRR are now reporting limited service into and out of Manhattan.

Path service still remains suspended. Some are already speculating that Path service to the World Trade Center may take years to restore.

They have announced that Manhattan is closed south of 14th street. Only residents who live within the closed area and don’t live within 10 blocks of the World Trade Center are being allowed south of 14th street. All business located south of 14th have been ordered closed for tomorrow. This includes all stores and restaurants. This also means that the stock market will be closed again tomorrow.

Alan Burden
Member #69637, posted 09-11-01 11:18 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11:00pm update.
Currently no word on if Metro North or the LIRR will have normal service in the morning. The mayor has asked everyone who can possibly stay home to please do so.

According to a Port Authority new conference Path service has resumed between 33rd street Manhattan and Hoboken, Journal Sq, and Newark. Obviously there is no service to the WTC. They will have limited service into Manhattan in the morning to 33rd street. The trains will bypass all local stops in Manhattan to 33rd street. This includes Christopher St., 9th Street, 14th street, and 23rd street.

They also stated that at present they expect the lockdown at all of their bridges and tunnels to continue through at least the morning rush hour. At that time it is anticipated that they will re-evaluate the situation.

The Staten Island ferry will not run.

All of Manhattan south of 14th street will remain lockdown throughout the entire day, and most likely into Thursday. No subways will stop south of 14th and no buses will operate south of 14th street.

Alan Burden
Member #69638, posted 09-11-01 11:42 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11:30 follow up.
The MTA has announced that they hope to run a normal rush hour in the morning on Metro North and the LIRR. All subways are expected to operate as normal in the morning, except that no stops will be made south of 14th street.

Currently there is no word from NJT about their plans for the morning.

Alan Burden
Member #69639, posted 09-12-01 12:12 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
12:00pm last update for the night.
NJT has been heard from. They have multiple plans depending on what both Amtrak and Path do. They will have no bus service to NY. If Path continues to run then will try to run normal train service. If Path stops running, then all service running into Hoboken terminal will be canceled. If Amtrak also shuts down, then they will have no train service west of Newark.

Further details can be found at their website here.

Alan Burden
Member #69646, posted 09-12-01 10:01 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NYC Transit as of 10:00am Wednesday

Amtrak – Running normal schedule with 10-minute delays south of Penn. (unconfirmed)

LIRR – running normal schedule.

Metro North – Running normal schedule.

NJT - Running normal train schedule, no bus service into NY. Normal bus service is running in NJ. All passes are being cross-honored bus to train and train to bus.

Path – Running service every 5 minutes to 33rd street from Hoboken and Newark via Journal Sq.

Subways – Service is as close to normal as possible in the outer boroughs. Below is a description within Manhattan.

Subway service will be normal on the A, B, D, F, G, L, Q, W and Seven lines. But trains will not stop at stations south of Canal Street. Note that the Mayor’s press conference says no stop south of 14th street.

Other subway lines will be detoured or operate in sections:
#1 TRAIN: OPERATING BETWEEN 242 ST. TO TIMES SQUARE.
#2 TRAIN: OPERATING BETWEEN WHITE PLAINS RD. TO 96 ST.
#4 TRAIN: OPERATING FROM WOODLAWN TO GRAND CENTRAL.
#5 TRAIN: OPERATING FROM DYRE AVE. TO 180TH ST.
R TRAIN: OPERATING BETWEEN 95 ST. AND 34 ST.
E TRAIN: OPERATING FROM PARSONS/ARCHER TO 2ND AVE.

NYC Buses – No express bus service at all. Buses run normal in the outer boroughs. No bus service south of 14th street.

All bridges and tunnels into the city remain closed. Most major highways leading up to the city are closed at least 2 miles or more away from the city.

Alan Burden
Member #69668, posted 09-12-01 05:18 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
5:00pm Transit Update.

Amtrak - Reporting most trains are running on time. Normal service expected for tomorrow morning.

Metro North and LIRR – Continue to operate a normal weekday schedule. They are also anticipating normal service for tomorrow morning.

NJT – Reporting that they have a few scattered delays, but that most trains are now running on time and on a regular weekday schedule. Earlier problems and delays caused by police action have been cleared. They are also anticipating normal train service for tomorrow morning. Bus operations will resume into Manhattan for the morining.

Path – Continues to operate on 5-minute headways between 33rd street and Hoboken or Newark via Journal Square. Reports conflict on whether or not the trains are stopping at the lower Manhattan stations. NYPD says that people are not being allowed south of 14th street, yet Path claims that they are making stops south of 14th street. Currently they expect to run trains every 10 minutes between Hoboken and 33rd and every ten minutes between Newark and 33rd street for tomorrow’s rush hour. There will be no service to Exchange Place and obviously WTC.

Subways – Almost all lines are running for a least part of their normal route. Basically any route under the WTC complex is either diverted or ends prematurely. Wherever possible normal service will run for morning rush hour.

Buses – Normal service still runs, except south of 14th street. The same will be true for tomorrow. There will be no express bus service.

Alan Burden
Member #69675, posted 09-12-01 07:48 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill,
I have heard some reports that they have been attempting to gain access through both the Path tunnels and through the subway tunnels. Officials have only said that they are aware of the tunnels, but say nothing more. Reading between the lines, I believe that they are indeed at least trying. Whether they have succeeded or not, I don’t know.

My guess however is that they are filled with rubble and quite possibly burning rubble. Plus within the past hour the last seven floors of World Trade One have collapsed. They have also had a building on Liberty Plaza come down. Finally they are very worried that WTC building number 5 will collapse. With all of the above occurring, I suspect that at least for the moment they would have pulled out of the tunnels. Perhaps if #5 comes down they will again try that approach.

Alan Burden
Member #69677, posted 09-12-01 08:15 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
8:00pm follow up.
The Port Authority has announced the Path service schedule for tomorrow Thursday the 13th.

Starting at 6:00am Path will run 3 services. Newark to 33rd street, Hoboken to 33rd street, and Hoboken to Journal Square. Trains will make all stops along their routes. This is a major change from today, where it was necessary to go into Manhattan to Christopher St. in order to go from Hoboken to any other NJ station and vise a versa.

The Exchange Place station will continue to remain closed. Passengers are advised to get off at Pavonia-Newport and ride the Hudson Bergen Light Rail. No word if there will be a free transfer, but I doubt it. Their other choice is to ride to Grove St and then walk.

NJT has confirmed that they will resume all bus service into Manhattan, except for buses that run into lower Manhattan.

Alan Burden
Member #69690, posted 09-13-01 09:13 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
9:00am Thursday Morning.
Most transit services are operating on or close to schedule with the exceptions as outlined by me above. There are one major exception and a few minor problems listed below.


NYC Subways have stopped all trains on the Lexington Avenue line south of Grand Central/42nd Street as of 8:00am. The need arose to reduce vibrations near the WTC for fear of additional collapses.

NJT is reporting scattered delays on certain trains in and out of NYC.

One additional problem as of 9:00am Staten Island had been shut down. All bridges are closed all bus service has stopped. Reports indicate that authorities are looking for a suspect in the terrorist attack.

Alan Burden
Member #69691, posted 09-13-01 09:17 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lou,
As it stands right now, barring any new problems, she should have no problems following her normal route. Buses are running, the PA bus terminal is open, and GC is operating normaly.

However if you want the scenic drive go for it. Don't however be shocked if there is not a tremendous amount of traffic and people come to the NJ boarder to gawk at the skyline.

Alan Burden
Member #69693, posted 09-13-01 10:34 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10:30am update.
Most of Staten Island has reopened, but remains subject to closure as they search for a suspect in a car. The Outerbridge continues to remain closed.

Most NYC transit continues to operate on schedule.


One interesting side note the MTA reports that normally their web site gets around 250,000 hits per day. Yesterday they had over 7 million hits.

KEVINKORELL
Member #69696, posted 09-13-01 11:42 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan and Bill,
As NJT was not running buses into or out of NY for a couple of days, the #139 route buses here on Route 9 were running local service between Lakewood and Old Bridge only. The #64 and #67 buses were continuing to go to Jersey City and Newark respectively. My feeling is that since trains were running into and out of Penn Station, the #139 could have run beyond Old Bridge and served rail stations in South Amboy, Perth Amboy, or Metropark, allowing those who had to get to or from Midtown the means to do so.

It's too bad Exchange Place has to lose PATH service, but logistically it would have been hard to turn trains there. It's hard to believe I was just in that station on Saturday. One characteristic of the Exchange Place station is that when you're waiting for a westbound train, you feel a huge rush of wind coming from the tunnel under the Hudson River from the time a train departs the World Trade Center until it arrives in Exchange Place. Sadly, I experienced that for what could have been the last time. The only bright side to this is the existence of the light rail at both Exchange Place and Newport, so at least there still is a rail link into the area.

I have not heard any reports about the condition of the underground PATH station at the WTC, although I would imagine that debris fell into the station when the buildings collapsed. When the events unfolded between 8:45 and 9:05 that morning, PATH would have been operating at its rush hour frequency, and there would have been trains sitting at each platform or in the loop that leads between the station and the tunnel under the Hudson. By 10:30 when both buildings had collapsed, I don't know if PATH had already suspended service but I imagine they had since the area would have been surrounded by emergency equipment for 90 minutes. We may not know what is down there until debris at the surface is cleaned up.

------------------
Kevin Korell

Alan Burden
Member #69697, posted 09-13-01 11:58 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin,
While I can’t speak to the condition of the Path tracks and station, although I would have to agree with your assessment, I can tell you a little bit that I have heard about the subways in that area.

This comes from an interview that NBC channel 4 had with Al O’Leary (sp) the MTA’s spokesman.

He said that preliminary reports indicate that at the very least the 7th Avenue #1 & #9 tracks and station at WTC are filled with debris. He said that they think that there may also have been a partial collapse of the station, but at the moment it is unclear if that has indeed happened. The #2 & #3 lines, which curve away to the east just before the WTC center, are filled with water. Again he was uncertain as to if this was caused by a broken water main or due to fire fighting efforts. No word on the condition of the N & R Broadway line or the 8th Avenue A, C & E lines.

My personal guess knowing the layout of the 8th Ave station is that the A and C tracks and station may still be intact and operable, once there is no danger of additional building collapses. However I would expect the terminal station for the E train has suffered some damage as it butts right up against the WTC complex.

KEVINKORELL
Member #69708, posted 09-13-01 05:15 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As of 5 PM Thursday, here is the status of the New York City subway:
The A trains are running via the F route to Jay Street/Boro Hall for now, of course nonstop in the lower Manhattan area until the area around Chambers Street is secured. The C is not running at all. E trains are running normal in Queens and as far as West 4th Street, then via the F route into Brooklyn, replacing C local service in Brooklyn to Euclid Avenue. All A trains will run to Lefferts Blvd., with shuttles going from Euclid Avenue to the Rockaways.

The station at Park Place on the 2 and 3 lines remains flooded, and since there are physical connections between this station and the Chambers Street Station on the Eighth Avenue line, this could be why those trains are being diverted.

No 9 service is running. The 1 trains are not operating south of 14th Street. The 2 line is running only between 241st Street in the Bronx and 34th Street-Penn Station in Manhattan. No service in Brooklyn, but there are shuttles running from the Atlantic Avenue station complex to Flatbush Avenue. The 3 is only running as a shuttle from 148th Street/Lenox Terminal to 135th Street, for transfers to the 2. A shuttle runs from Atlantic Avenue in Brooklyn to New Lots Avenue.

There still exists the extreme danger of building collapses around the financial district, and that is why the Lexington Avenue 4 trains are not running south of 14th Street. The 6 is running from the Bronx to Grand Central Terminal only. The 5 trains are only running as a shuttle between Dyre Avenue and East 180th Street in the Bronx, for transfers with the 2.

Broadway Line trains, N and R have been suspended downtown as well. R trains are running from 95th Street/4th Avenue to Court Street in Brooklyn only, with no service in Manhattan or Brooklyn. The N is running in two sections, from Coney Island to Court Street in Brooklyn, and from 34th Street-Herald Square to Astoria. W and Q trains continue running over the Manhattan Bridge, but are providing local service in Manhattan, skipping Canal Street and Prince Street.

J and Z trains are running over the Williamsburg Bridge, but are terminating at the Delancy/Essex Streets complex, presumably just for transfers to the F line. The M is only a shuttle from Metropolitan Avenue to Broadway/Myrtle Avenue in Brooklyn.

------------------
Kevin Korell

Alan Burden
Member #69730, posted 09-13-01 11:32 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11:30pm update:
Metro North and LIRR expect to operate on a normal schedule.

Subways will run as Kevin outlined above. No changes are expected to that list until at least late Saturday.

NJT Trains are expected to run a normal schedule. Buses will continue to run into Manhattan, but not below 14th street. One service note however, all buses that serve Journal Square in Jersey City will not be stopping at that stop. The report says that this will remain in effect until September 30th. NJT will also continue its policy of cross honoring passes between buses and trains until the end of September.

All NY water ferries are expected to operate, although none will operate to the World Financial Center.

The Staten Island Ferry will still operate only for emergency personnel.

All of this is subject to ongoing police investigations. The other problem that continues to plague transit, is the fact that there have been over 90 bomb threats or suspicious packages phoned into the police today alone.

One final non transit note, most of the NYC TV stations are now reporting that they are back on the “Air Waves”. Since all of the stations’ broadcast antennas were on top of the WTC any one without cable or satellite has been unable to watch local TV.

Alan Burden
Member #69739, posted 09-14-01 11:53 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Friday 11:00am Update.
Metro North, LIRR, and NJT continue to operate normal or as near as normal schedules.

Subways – The #4 line is reported to be back in operation along the full length of its run, albeit with no stop in lower Manhattan. At a recent press conference by the Mayor, he reported that the MTA has been running test train through lower Manhattan. He reports that they checked for vibrations in the WTC area and that all seems normal.

He therefore expects that throughout the weekend, in conjunction with the city reopening the Wall Street area that all lines east of Broadway will gradually reopen. This would include the 4 & 5 making stop within that area, and the resumption of full service on the J, M, and Z trains. There is no specific timetable for this, but the earliest would be Saturday morning.

No word on if the tunnel for the #2 & #3 lines has been pumped dry and will be usable. While this line is west of Broadway and may be to close for the vibrations, it does curve east prior to the WTC area. I strongly suspect that the A & C train tunnels will not reopen for at least a week and possibly much longer, as their tunnel basically makes its eastbound turn under the WTC complex.

I have heard no further information on the status of the tunnels, track, or stations for the #1, #9, N, & R lines. These lines also run directly under at least part of the WTC complex. Even if the lines are operable, the heavy vibration would probably be to much for some of the buildings that are barely standing as it is.

I have also heard an unconfirmed report that if the #2 & #3 tunnels remain unusable that the following diversions might be implemented. The #3 would travel down 7th Avenue to 34th Street. The #2 would run down the Lexington Avenue line, before resuming its normal route in Brooklyn. The #4 would run as normal. The #5 would run down the Lexington Avenue line to Bowling Green like it does during off peak hours, then it would go around the South Ferry outer loop and stop at the #1 & #9 station at South Ferry before resuming its normal route back uptown. This would facilitate a connection with the Staten Island Ferry. During off peak hours the #5 normally goes around the inner South Ferry loop, which no longer has a station. Again I stress that this is one possible scenario for Monday and has not been confirmed.

Staten Island Ferry – Currently is expected to resume normal service on Monday.

KEVINKORELL
Member #69740, posted 09-14-01 12:47 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Of course the walk is not bad between the ferry terminal at South Ferry and the Bowling Green station -- it's just across the park. But running the 5 is a good way to serve South Ferry since those trains usually turn around in lower Manhattan anyway.
They still don't know the condition of the 1/9 station at Cortland Street, which was accessed only through the World Trade Center concourse. They say it could be either a pocket of life, or sadly a tomb. Since the platform is roughly in between the two towers, maybe there is some hope that debris did not get into the tunnel.

The N/R station for Cortland Street is a little further south, possibly right adjacent to the South Tower.

Hopefully the collapse cut the power to the third rail, which could have given people a place to run if they had to. I guess we won't know until they get down there. But I wonder if the MTA is able to try and get to the area via the tracks, perhaps in a high rail vehicle that does not cause vibrations?

------------------
Kevin Korell

Alan Burden
Member #69742, posted 09-14-01 01:18 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin,
You’re right it’s not that long of a walk, about a block and a half, I’ve done it myself. But serving the South Ferry station would be a great help in moving the vast number of people coming off the SI Ferry. Plus as I mentioned since the #5 normally goes around the inner loop off peak, switching it to the outer loop is both possible and does not increase it’s running time, other than that required for the stop. Plus many times I’ve seen a #5 sitting on the inner loop waiting for its assigned time to begin its uptown journey.

I'm not aware if the MTA has any high rail vehicles that are assigned to the Subways. I suppose that one could be brought in from either the LIRR or Metro North. I do wonder however, if there could be any clearance issues with this.

They could however just use one of their work diesels down in the area. While they could not stay down there for two long as the fumes could overpower, running at a low speed of 2-5 miles per hour would not create significant vibrations.

I have not heard any reports that they have indeed done this, however I would not be surprised if they have not tried. I think that this is how Al O’Leary knew about the damage to the #1 & #9 stations. I would also not be surprised if the MTA has conveyed rescue workers into the area in this fashion, in an attempt to rescue people. Both trapped in the stations and also in the sub-basements of the WTC complex.

I also just recently heard a confirmed report that rescuers have managed to break into the sub-basement of WTC building #7. From here it is possible, depending on damage and debris, to access the entire underground concourse of the WTC. No reports, yet, of any luck finding survivors.

KEVINKORELL
Member #69746, posted 09-14-01 05:40 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PATH --- Bad news. The tunnel under the Hudson River is flooded, most likely from firefighting efforts. No survivors found in the PATH WTC station.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Jersey City-AP) -- Jersey City firefighters have abandoned efforts to motorboat through a flooded PATH rail tunnel. They were attempting to see if there were any survivors by the World Trade Center train platform. But New York authorities working through a tunnel vent in lower Manhattan have determined that there are no signs of life.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------
Kevin Korell

Alan Burden
Member #69752, posted 09-14-01 06:11 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One news source now reports that it will a very long time before service can be restored to the #1 & #9 lines.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Number 1 Trains are not likely to run in the near future south of Chambers Street to South Ferry due to a severe structural damage in the tunnel that has occured between Chambers Street and Rector Street.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No word if any of the stations were damaged, or just how much of the tunnel may have problems, nor whether the damage is spread through out the entire length of the segment listed above or if it is all in one or two spots.

It should also be noted that if they resume #2 & #3 train service to Brooklyn, it will not be possible to run the #1 & #9 past 14th street. Worse in order to do that, it would require switching all local trains to the express tracks after 42nd Street and sending all express trains to the local tracks after 42nd Street. Even that may be to complicated and complex of a switching problem during rush hour service.

Frankly while it might be even more confusing to the public for awhile, it would probably be easier to reverse the express and locals at 96th street where the two lines come together to form the 4 track main. So it will be very interesting to see what they do, if indeed this report is correct.

KEVINKORELL
Member #69764, posted 09-14-01 08:48 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don, sadly those are questions which might never be answered, because those who would have been coordinating such an evacuation might have perished with the passengers.
I think PATH should have an idea of where its trains were at the time of impact, and where they were at the time of the building collapse. Have they said they are missing any equipment?

PATH has a map (similar to AMTRAK's in Wilmington) located in the Journal Square station that pinpoints the location of each of its trains. I'd like to hear them say that after the first jet crashed into the building, they immediately ran all of their trains out of the WTC and cleared the station. Such a smart action would have minimized, if not eliminated, any loss of life or equipment among its passengers and crew.

The other question is, did the PATH station and third rail lose power when the jet impact occurred? That of course would have hampered getting people and trains out of there.

The fact that the tunnel was full of water is scary -- hopefully the tunnel itself was not compromised and that the water is from the building's plumbing or from several days of firefighting. Some of that "water" could even be dangerous jet fuel.

All I know is, I was on that PATH system just 3 days before the events of Tuesday, and I was as close to WTC as the Exchange Place station, which is now closed because it's on the WTC line. Who would have dreamed we would be discussing this just 6 days later?

------------------
Kevin Korell

Alan Burden
Member #69765, posted 09-14-01 09:09 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don,
I haven’t heard much of anything about the NYC subways, however I would suspect that the MTA probably shut down the subways if not prior to the second plane hitting, then immediately after. That’s pretty much standard for them with any big fire or disaster.

I can tell you that I have read to separate stories about Path. The first from Trains.com.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PATH’s station beneath the Hoboken Terminal was the site of a triage station that treated people with minor wounds who had taken the train from Manhattan Tuesday morning before service stopped.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The second and perhaps more scary is a story that says that not only are the Hudson River Tunnels flooded, but that Path has one train that they cannot account for. The report does not state if they know if the train was in the station at the time or if it is stuck in the Manhattan side of the Hudson tubes. I can’t currently find where I read this story, having read a few hundred different stories and refreshes of transit sites, but if and when I do find it I will put up a link to it.

After continuous pumping of the tunnels from the New Jersey side, firefighters from Jersey City riding in a boat are still unable to reach Manhattan. The water level is still floor to ceiling at the lowest point. I have not heard of any attempts to go down the tunnels from the NY side, nor if the rescuers who got to the platforms under WTC saw the missing train.

I was actually in WTC catching a Path train on Friday the 31st of August. I was on my way to NJ to ride the new Newark City Subway and meet my mother at the end of the line.

Alan Burden
Member #69767, posted 09-14-01 10:40 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10:30pm Friday updates.
Metro North, LIRR and NJT – All expect to operate normal Saturday schedules for tomorrow.

Path – Will operate on a normal Saturday headway, but again for obvious reasons, will run Newark trains to 33rd Street instead of WTC.

Subways – The biggest change for tomorrow will occur here. Starting at around 6 or 7am full service will resume on the #4 line. It will make all stops in Manhattan providing the first train service to Wall St since Tuesday. It remains unclear if the #5 will also resume normal service, or will continue to end in the Bronx.

The mayor also said that all subways east of Broadway would be running. However, when he read of the list of stops it did not include any of the stops on the Nassau loop which carries the J, M, & Z lines. Therefore it remains unclear if those trains will be running south of Canal Street or not. I will update this as soon as it becomes clear.

Buses – MTA buses will operate on two avenues east of Broadway south of Canal Street. One avenue will be used for the downtown runs and one for uptown. (Cars will remain off limits south of Canal St.)

Staten Island Ferry – Still expected to resume normal service on Monday.

Alan Burden
Member #69775, posted 09-15-01 08:11 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
8:00am Saturday Morning update:

All commuter railroads continue to anticipate running on a normal weekend schedule.

Subway changes for Saturday and Sunday are as follows:

The most shocking of the announced changes is the resumption of service on the A line. I’m absolutely stunned that this train will be running, as according to the maps I have, this line dives under the WTC complex before turning to the east and Brooklyn. Nevertheless this train will make no stops south of Canal St except for the Fulton St.-Broadway Nassau stop. It currently appears that the E train is continuing to follow the F train’s route to Brooklyn from West 4th street, prior to resuming replacement service for the C train in Brooklyn.

The #4 trains will resume a normal schedule with one exception; they will not stop at the Wall Street station. All other stops will be made. I’m not sure about the #5 train one section of the MTA’s web page says that the train is stopping at the Fulton St and Bowling Green stations. The other section says it’s still not going south of 180th Street in the Bronx. The #6 train will resume normal service to all stops in Manhattan including the Brooklyn Bridge Station.

The J & Z trains will also resume service to the Broadway Station. This is an interesting move for two reasons. One the Z is a rush hour skip-stop service, so I don’t understand why it’s running on a Saturday. Two there is no mention of the Broad Street station being open. This is the last stop in Manhattan; it’s also the only place south of the Brooklyn Bridge station, that trains can change tracks to head back uptown. While realizing that the station does not need to be open for the trains to stop and reverse there, it does seem silly not to open the station.

No word on the resumption of service for the N & R or the #2 & #3 trains.

Path reports no changes to their service pattern from the last few days. All trains will run essentially on a normal Saturday schedule, wherever possible.

KEVINKORELL
Member #69780, posted 09-15-01 12:32 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan, my understanding is that the 4 and 5 subway lines are running the full length of Manhattan and both are entering Brooklyn, to provide replacement service for the 2 and 3. The 4 is going as far as New Lots Avenue to replace 3 service, while the 5 runs to Nostrand/Flatbush Avenues to replace the 2.
------------------
Kevin Korell

Alan Burden
Member #69783, posted 09-15-01 01:13 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin, that would make the most sense. But when I checked out the MTA's site 10 minutes ago it's still stating that the 5 ends at 180th Street. Personally I think that it is an oversight on their part.
However, I have also heard several other very intesting and conflicting reports. Although I doubt that they are true, which is why I have not reported them. One of the more interesting reports was that the R was running it's normal route. I discounted it however because what they reported for the rest of the Broadway line conflicted with that possibility.

Alan Burden
Member #69815, posted 09-16-01 11:12 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The latest as of Sunday Morning.

Subway – According to official reports from the MTA here are the current runs and diversions.

On the 7th Avenue lines, the 1 continues to run only as far south as 14th street. The 2 & 3 run south to 34th street. No word on if the 9 will run on Monday it’s normal day, but I suspect that it will not operate do to lack of place to turn the train back uptown.

Lexington Avenue lines 4, 5, & 6are essentially running normally, with the following exceptions. Both the 4 & 5 are still skipping the Wall street station. In addition the 4 has been extended in Brooklyn to New Lots Ave. The 5 which normally does not run into Brooklyn on the weekend, does continue to run it’s full route in Brooklyn to Flatbush Avenue.

On the Broadway lines the N now runs into Brooklyn via the Manhattan Bridge. It is also skipping the stop at Prince Street and Canal Street. No word as to why it’s skipping those stops. The R is also running via the Manhattan Bridge, but is stopping at Canal & Prince Streets. The W train continues to run local in Manhattan and Brooklyn. Normally this train does not operate into Manhattan on the weekends. The Q local is running normally. No word if the Q express will operate on Monday. I suspect that with the N & R running on the Manhattan Bridge that there may not be enough headway room left to run the Q express over the bridge.

On the 8th Avenue lines the A continues to operate as normal, except that is skips the Chambers Street stop. The E train run normal in Queens, local in Manhattan to Canal Street, then into Brooklyn where it runs local. It also does not stop at Chambers St. An interesting side note is that the last time the E ran this route was before the WTC was built. The C continues to remain suspended.

The Nassau Street trains the J & Z are operating to Broad St. Manhattan. This would be considered normal weekend service except that the Z does not normally run on the weekend. The M train runs it’s normal weekend service in Brooklyn.

All service continues to be normal on all trains running on Sixth Avenue, which includes the B, D, F, & the S shuttles.

The #7, the L, the G, and all shuttles are running normal weekend service.


Path – No reported changes from the operating plan of the last few days. Stories continue to surface regarding a missing train, either in the WTC station or one of the tunnels. There is still no direct confirmation from the Port Authority on this matter. While the staff does have it’s hands full dealing with the disaster and the security issues at it remaining facilities, it does lead me to believe that this story may sadly be true, since they are not denying the rumors.

Alan Burden
Member #69819, posted 09-16-01 07:46 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sunday night update:

There are major changes coming again for Monday subway service. The following trains will not run until further notice; C, N, R, Z, 9.

Now the actual breakdown.

The number 1 will run normal to 96th street, where it will switch to the express tracks. It will then run express to 14th street, which will be its last stop. The 2 & 3 trains will operate normally to 96th street, where they will then run local. They will then make all local stops to Franklin Street. The train will not stop at the Chambers Street station nor the Park Place station. They will run normally in Brooklyn.

Over to Lexington Avenue where the 4, 5, & 6 will all run normally, with one exception. The 4 & 5 will not stop at the Wall Street station until further notice.

On 8th Avenue, the A will run normal with two minor exceptions. The first is that it will skip the Chambers Street stop. It will however stop at the 163rd Street station and the 155th Street Station, to replace the C which is not running. The E will run normal in Queens and Manhattan until it reaches Canal Street. Then it will follow the normal route for the C train into Brooklyn. It will also skip Chambers Street and then make all stop in Brooklyn that the C would normally make.

Now for the Broadway line where there are some big changes. As I mentioned above the N & R will cease running. The W will replace the N and make all local stops in Manhattan north of Canal. It will also run local in Queens to Ditmars Blvd. The Q local or circle will run normal in Brooklyn and local in Manhattan to 57th Street. It will then be extended into Queens to replace the discontinued R train. The Q express will operate as normal.

Perhaps the most sweeping changes will occur on the Nassau Street line. The J will run local from Parsons/Archer in Queens to Broad Street in Manhattan. Skip stop service with the Z has been suspended. It will then continue through the Montaque Street tunnels into Brooklyn where it will replace the R train on 4th Avenue to 95th Street. The M train will run as normal to Broad Street Manhattan, then continue into Brooklyn and replace the N train.

It should be pointed out here that not only does this mean that many more people will now be forced to change trains to arrive at their final destination. It also adds a capacity problem to the equation. Both the J & M are 8 car consists, due to station lengths and structural strength along their normal route. They are replacing trains that are normally 10 car consists.

All other trains will operate as normal.


The MTA also expects that the bottom end of the Broadway line to be out of service for several weeks, at least until the rescue and cleanup at WTC are finished. They also say they expect the World Trade Station on the E line will be closed until the cleanup is finished. The 1 & 9 lines are closed indefinitely as they are reporting structural damage to the tunnels.

KEVINKORELL
Member #69826, posted 09-16-01 10:40 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan,
Thanks for all of the updates. I understand it all, but I pity the New Yorkers and visitors who are already having trouble understanding the system, especially since the recent Manhattan Bridge changes. And now a new temporary map has been drawn for a while. More is coming in November with the 63rd Street Tunnel changes.

Can you tell if the Q replacing the R is using the 60th Street tunnel or the new 63rd Street tunnel?

------------------
Kevin Korell

Alan Burden
Member #69828, posted 09-16-01 11:26 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin,
Yes I'm sure it's going to be a very interesting morning for commuters. Especially since I have not yet heard any of these changes on TV yet. When the Manhattan Bridge changes went into effect it was a circus, as was noted here on the BB. That time there was also lots of warning, media coverage, and the change went into effect on Sunday not Monday.

Worse I was out riding the trains today and I saw an MTA poster that directly conflicted with what I posted regarding the 7th Avenue line, although it did concur with the rest of my report. However, based upon what I observed and a few other web sites, I went with what I posted. In an effort to see how accurate some of the info flying around has been, not to mention the info I’ve been providing, I took a ride on several lines today. I am working on a report of my observations, but have not yet posted it.

In answer to your question the Q will be using the 60th Street tunnel, which is the normal route for the R train. This is also one of the reasons it’s running local, as the Q express would be blocking access to the 63rd Street tunnel at 57th Street where that train is turning. About 8-10 years ago they removed the switches and about 20 feet of track that would have permitted access to the 63rd Street tunnel from the local tracks upon exiting or entering the north end of the station.

Alan Burden
Member #69833, posted 09-17-01 06:55 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here’s the latest as of Monday night.
Those who chose to bring their cars into Manhattan encountered massive delays, for example the Lincoln Tunnel still had a 2-hour backup at 9:30am. Normal for that hour would be at most a half an hour. However those savvy travelers who choose transit, from all accounts, did quite well.

Amtrak and all commuter railroads encountered no major delays that I’ve heard of.

Even the dramatic and widespread changes to the subway seemed to work well. Again I have not heard of any major problems, nor mass confusion like was caused with the Manhattan Bridge reroutes. It is also possible that this type of news was just over shadowed by the events of recent.

I can tell you that as I took the number 7 to one of my clients this morning, there were almost constant announcements on the PA system listing the many changes. At almost every station I could here the announcements when the doors opened to board passengers. With a few exceptions most of the media were reporting the correct changes this morning.

For those who might like to better understand the current routes and re-routes within the subway system, the MTA has released a revised subway map. Please note that you must have the Adobe Acrobat Reader installed on your computer in order to view this map. If you do not have Acrobat Reader you can click here to obtain the program.
Clicking here will take you to the subway map.

They have also released a very nice and detailed map showing the lower Manhattan routes and stations. This map also gives you a very clear picture of where the lines run in relation to the location of the World Trade Center. Once again you will need Adobe Acrobat Reader in order to view this map. Please click here to view the lower Manhattan map.


There are no new updates regarding the reopening of closed stations or lines.


Path continues to run it’s rerouted service and again seems to be doing well. I have heard that rescuers did manage to reach the WTC station. Sadly there are no survivors in the station. No word on how many, if any victims were found. The report specifically mentioned, “There were no survivors found within the various air pockets within the station”. This would leave me to believe, that as suspected, damage to this station is extraordinarily heavy.


NJT buses while running are experiencing delays into NYC, because of the heavy backups at the Lincoln Tunnel that I mentioned above.

The Staten Island ferry resumed passenger service this morning, but no cars are being allowed.

KEVINKORELL
Member #69840, posted 09-17-01 10:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are also some extra and rerouted ferries being run. For example, the NY Waterway ferry route that normally goes from Hoboken Terminal to World Financial Center is instead running to Pier 11 which is on the East Side on the other end of Wall Street.
I believe some Staten Island Ferry boats are being used to run from the Whitehall Terminal to somewhere in Brooklyn. There are special shuttle buses meeting the ferries on the New York side, since there is no 1/9 or N/R service available.

------------------
Kevin Korell

Alan Burden
Member #69841, posted 09-17-01 11:12 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin,
The fact that they are using the Staten Island ferry boats for the new service, would explain the reduced frequency on the Staten Island ferry.

The special ferry service is operating from Pier 4 in the Brooklyn Army Terminal at 58th Street and 1st Avenue.

I havn't heard of any special buses, just two normal routes that run in the unfrozen zone, the M15 and the M103. Plus there are still 3 subway routes running in the area.

KEVINKORELL
Member #69866, posted 09-18-01 11:39 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One change that that was made today, but does not yet show on the redrawn map effective 9/18, with the Chambers Street-South Ferry line "lost indefinitely", the 1 and 3 have essentially changed places, with the 3 now terminating at 14th Street and the 1 now running to Brooklyn and serving the line to New Lots Avenue.
Alan, now that they have written off the 1/9 line below Chambers Street for the forseeable future, it would make sense to run those 5 trains that terminate at Bowling Green around the outer South Ferry Loop and continue to serve that station. What have you seen in the stations, are there red and white notices all over the place? Are they changing the overhead black signs on the platforms to show (for instance) the Q along Queens Blvd. or the J on the 4th Avenue Line in Brooklyn?

------------------
Kevin Korell

Alan Burden
Member #69880, posted 09-20-01 07:59 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As of Thursday morning the Wall Street station, on the 4 & 5 line, will reopen. This now means that all stations east of Broadway are open. All stations west of Broadway within the frozen zone remain closed.

Alan Burden
Member #69905, posted 09-21-01 08:22 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin, my schedule this week has not brought me to Manhattan very much. Other than Monday, today was the only other time I was in Manhattan. Based upon a very limited sampling of stations I found the following, and Grand Central was the only major station.
The only service change signs that I saw were for normal routine late night and weekend changes. The only time that I saw a notice regarding the re-routes caused by last week’s events was during my journey last weekend, which I described under the Miscellaneous Travel Items and Trip Reports section.

I did however find, at both my local station and at Grand Central, a one-page handout listing each train in the city and describing its current route if any. They also continue to make almost continues announcements on the PA at each station, describing the various changes. They seem to have split the list in half doing A-M in one group then following up with N-Z plus 1-9 in the next announcement.

The one station that I rode through, that does have a change of trains is Queensboro Plaza. This station on the 7 & N lines, where the N has been replaced with the W, did not have the overhead black signs changed. It should be noted that this station was already serving both the N & W trains, since the changes caused by the Manhattan Bridge construction. That may be why the signs still listed both the N & W trains, especially since I would expect that within a month or two services will resume on the N & R line in lower Manhattan, even if all of the stations don't reopen right away.

Finally even if I weren’t already a train fan, I would have to say that trains continue to be the best way to travel around NYC. With 2 tunnels still closed and one partial bridge closure, plus constant inspection of trucks and vans at most crossings, using your car can greatly increase your travel times. It took me an hour and a half yesterday to get from Queens to New Jersey, via the Triborough Bridge and the George Washington Bridge. This is a journey that should take no more than a half hour; at the time I was traveling 10:30am.

KEVINKORELL
Member #69917, posted 09-23-01 11:41 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan,
I have been reading that the C trains may soon be reinstated, with the E trains being turned at Canal Street (one stop short of Chambers/WTC). Won't they have to go on the express track to be turned there?

------------------
Kevin Korell

Alan Burden
Member #69919, posted 09-23-01 12:29 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin,
I haven’t heard about that one yet. However there are two ways to accomplish this. The first and easiest would quite simply be to allow the E train to pull into the WTC station. As you will note from my report “Journey Through A Changed Transit System”, a good portion of the station is undamaged. I suspect that the remainder that I could not see, at least as far as the tracks are concerned, is also undamaged.

While it is most unlikely that the public entrance which butts up against the WTC complex is usable. I think that the rest of the station is in working order. Were it not for the fact that they would not want a train dropping a group of people right next to “Ground Zero”, they could probably restore revenue service here right now. This is also the reason that the Chambers Street station & Park Place stations remain empty. Remember that the Chambers Street station on the A & C trains, the World Trade Center station on the E, and the Park Place station on the 2 & 3 trains are all interconnected and within a few feet of one another. Note that I used pre-disaster route designations.

If however my assumptions about the WTC station are wrong, then there is another option. After dropping off the final passengers at Canal Street, the downtown train would pull out of the station and cross over to the express/Brooklyn bound track. Approximately two hundred yards later, after the downtown local track has passed under what were the express tracks, there is a short lay-up track. This lay-up track is positioned in the middle of the two-track trunk line going to and from Brooklyn. It ends about 50 feet or so north of the Chambers Street station on the A & C line.

After reversing the E train would return on the uptown track, and enter the Canal Street station on the express track. Immediately after leaving the station, just like the C train, the E train would cross over to the uptown local tracks and return to it’s normal route.

Not only would be impractical to reverse the trains in the Canal Street station on the express track, since you would delay other trains heading to Brooklyn, there are no interlocks to permit this operation prior to entering the station.

Alan Burden
Member #69928, posted 09-23-01 07:17 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The MTA is confirming that the C train is indeed returning on Monday. The E will indeed make it's last stop at Canal Street.
Kevin, I'll have to wander by on Tuesday to see which of the two methods they are using to turn the trains.

KEVINKORELL
Member #69963, posted 09-26-01 06:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good news, as posted on website of WCBS radio in New York:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(New York-AP) -- A city Transit spokesman says the Chambers Street station on the 1 and 2 lines re-opened today. The station is near the World Trade Center and trains had passed by the station. They're now stopping to pick up and drop off passengers. The Chambers Street station on the A and C train lines remains closed with no estimate on when that will re-open for passengers. City transit spokesman Al O'Leary said the opening should help people who work and live in the area.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------
Kevin Korell

Alan Burden
Member #69964, posted 09-26-01 07:02 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The reopening of the Chambers Street station for the 1 & 2 is also confirmed on the MTA's web site. New maps are also available, see links below. Please remember that you need Adobe Acrobat Reader in order to view the maps.

Alan Burden
Member #69980, posted 09-27-01 07:30 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The first video of the destroyed NYC subway tunnels is now available, showing the damage to the 1 & 9 line. They mention that over a thousand feet of tunnel was destroyed, along with the Cortland Street station. They also report that the Cortland Street station on the N & R line was destroyed.

The video is from “New York 1 News” a local cable channel for the city.

Alan Burden
Member #70005, posted 09-28-01 12:06 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
New York City Transit officials have determined that damage to the No. 1 and 9 subway tunnels and stations in Lower Manhattan is so extensive that the line will need to be completely rebuilt for more than a mile.
The work on the line from just south of Chambers Street all the way to the end, at the South Ferry station, could take more than two years, transit officials said this week, adding that they could not speculate beyond that.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This article from the New York Times goes on to state that at least 575 feet of the tunnel is completely collapsed and that there are I-beams that are bent like paper clips. It also mentions that parts of the tunnel will need to be filled with concrete in an effort to shore up the street above. Without this heavy equipment will not be able to work to clear the debris from the street above. This of course will then need to be drilled out before the tunnel can be rebuilt.

They also mention that a corridor and equipment room on the N & R lines was punctured by debris from the #2 World Trade building. They estimate that it will take close to six months to restore that line.

The full article can be found here. Please note that free registration is required to view this story.

KEVINKORELL
Member #70006, posted 09-28-01 02:11 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It sounds like the structural damage extended as far south as the South Ferry station, which might explain why the 5 is not serving the station in the interim. I wonder if the 5 is looping through the South Ferry station on the trips that end revenue service at Bowling Green?
------------------
Kevin Korell

Alan Burden
Member #70008, posted 09-28-01 04:36 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin,
I have no first hand knowledge if the 5 is using the South Ferry loop during off peak hours. However, I think that the article must be wrong in saying that the South Ferry station needs rebuilding. This station is over 10 blocks away from the WTC, a distance of just over one half mile. Other than dust, this is well past the farthest reaches of the debris field.

I personally walked through that area during my subway excursion the Sunday right after the attack. I can tell you with certainty that there was no above ground damage to the Whitehall Ferry Terminal, no damage to the South Ferry Station, and no visible damage to Battery Park. The Bowling Green station, where I boarded an uptown 5 during my trip, was also undamaged. That station is 3 blocks further north than South Ferry.

For that matter even the article mentions that the World Trade Center station on the E line is essentially undamaged. This station literally touches the underground WTC complex. My only concern is the fact that the article mentions that they have plugged the 1 & 9 tunnel to protect against flooding, should the walls fail on the sub-basement. Even Path has plugged its tunnels near the Exchange Place station. I wonder what they have done to protect against that threat at the WTC station.

This is not a tunnel that is easily plugged, but instead is a number of glass doors. If the basement were to flood and water entered the station, it would then be able to flood the A, C, & E lines. Plus if the water rose high enough, I suspect that it would also be able to flood the Park Place station on the 2 & 3 lines. Although at the moment the 1 is replacing the 3 train. This would create a major transportation nightmare, not to mention what could happen if there was no or only limited warning of imminent flooding.

KEVINKORELL
Member #70009, posted 09-28-01 05:37 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And if that floods, and the water makes its way east in the A/C or 1/2 subways one station to the Broadway/Nassau/Fulton Street complex, it will affect most of the rest of the system too, wiping out the J/M and the 4/5 lines as well.
------------------
Kevin Korell

KEVINKORELL
Member #70035, posted 09-30-01 12:50 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NYCSUBWAY.ORG has 19 photos now available of the damage to the WTC station on the 1/9 line, apparently taken by the MTA. You may have seen some of these elsewhere, but they are all here together in one place:
here
------------------
Kevin Korell

Alan Burden
Member #70164, posted 10-05-01 07:18 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The MTA has restored service today to the Chambers Street station on the A & C lines. While this station runs under four city blocks with multiple entrances, only the entrances at the north end on Chambers Street will be open. The connecting passages between Chambers and the WTC and Park Place stations will remain closed. No word on when those two stations might reopen, since this will require the frozen zone’s northern line to move further south towards ground zero.

Alan Burden
Member #70165, posted 10-05-01 08:46 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin,
To answer two of your earlier questions posed in “NYC Transit Update Part 5”, I took a few subway rides last Saturday after my return from the Deleware Transportation Festival.

The first question related to, how were they turning the E train at Canal Street. My earlier suspicions about the condition of the WTC station were correct. Initially I stood on the Canal Street platforms and watched a few trains come and go. All of the E’s entering the station going northbound, were on the local track. The only way to get on that track is to come from the WTC station. I also watched the southbound E train that I had used in getting to the station pull out, after it was inspected for any passengers. Once they were sure it was empty, it left on the track heading for the WTC station.

I then took a ride at the front of a Brooklyn bound C train. As my train pulled slowly through the Chambers Street station, I saw that the E train that had just left Canal Street, was indeed parked at the WTC station.

The second question regarded, whether the overhead signs were being changed. At the moment the overheads are still not being changed. Even on the 1, 2, & 3 lines were the current changes are expected to stay in effect for years. While the expense might not be justifiable on the N, Q, & R Broadway lines which might see service return south of Canal in 5 to 6 six months, one would think that they would change the overheads for the 7th Avenue line.

My sampling included rides on the Broadway line, the 7th Avenue line, the 4th Avenue Brooklyn line, and the Queens Boulevard line.

They do continue to make frequent announcements, listing the changes, at most stations. While most people seem to have adjusted, I have seen several people who are confused about which train is going where. Several people have even leaned into the train car I was in, to ask the closest passenger where that particular train was headed.

I even watched two young women yesterday let a W train go, because they were waiting for an N train to Queens. I politely explained that they would be waiting all day if they continued to wait for a N train. They informed me that they had been waiting for over 20 minutes for that elusive N train.

I have not seen any of the one page notices listing all of the changes, that they were handing out during the first week following the disaster.

Alan Burden
Member #70397, posted 10-18-01 09:27 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Below are links to the latest NY Subway maps showing the current service changes due to the World Trade Center disaster. Note that these new maps do not reflect any changes in subway service, they only show additional bus service. I’m posting the new links only in case the old links should stop working.

Full NY Subway Map

Alan Burden
Member #70505, posted 10-25-01 07:26 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
An unconfirmed report states that service will return Sunday morning October 28th to the lower Broadway line, which has been closed since the September 11th disaster. This would allow the return of the N & R trains. The trains will not stop at the Cortland Street station or the Rector Street station, since these stops are within the frozen zone. However the City Hall station, the Whitehall Street, and the Canal Street stations will reopen.
This provides not only a second choice for passengers transferring from the Staten Island Ferry, but it is much closer than the other alternative. The Whitehall station is only one block from the ferry, as opposed to the Bowling Green station on the 4 & 5 lines which is a three block walk. The closest transfer to the ferry is the South Ferry station on the still closed 1 & 9 line. This line is still predicted to be closed for at least two years, and that is dependent upon the cleanup process at the WTC site.

Another major advantage to the return of the N & R service is that these are 10 car trains. Currently the J & M, both of which run 8 car consists, are providing replacement service in Brooklyn for the N & R. This I’m sure has lead to worse than normal overcrowding on rush hour trains.


------------------
Alan Burden

Alan Burden
Member #70506, posted 10-25-01 09:06 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some personal transit observations from NYC:
My travels this past Tuesday took me to Penn Station to pickup some Amtrak tickets for a coming trip in November. I was not surprised to see a very heavy concentration of NYC Police Officers, not to mention at least 30 National Guard soldiers, as I walked through the lower LIRR level of the terminal. It did however seem odd that on the upper level of Penn Station, the NJT & Amtrak level, there were no NYPD or National Guard troops.

I wonder if Amtrak did not ask for help or did not want help? One would think with their resources stretched so thin, that they would welcome, if not request assistance. Especially since the Governor has already deployed troops to the rest of the station and the surrounding streets.

The entire complex, including MSG, continues to be surrounded with guarded concrete Jersey barriers. Also the small street that runs through the middle of the complex continues to remain closed. No word on if or when this might reopen.

Turning to the subways and returning to a question raised by Kevin Korell a few weeks ago, I can now report the following. The overhead signs on the 7th Avenue 1, 2, & 3 lines have now been changed. They reflect the current changes on this line caused by the WTC disaster. All signs at the 34th Street and 42nd Street stations on the local track in both directions now list the 1 & 2 trains. The signs for the express tracks now show only the number 3 line. The number 9 train has completely disappeared. This I’m sure reflects the long-term nature, two years or more, of this change.

On the other hand, the overhead signs on the Broadway line have continued to show all of the trains that were running prior to the WTC disaster. This would of course make sense in light of the report I posted above.


------------------
Alan Burden

KEVINKORELL
Member #70512, posted 10-25-01 10:53 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alan,
Thanks for your observations and reports from New York. Having the N/R back sooner than expected means the damage was not as bad as they had thought, and that they worked feverishly to get this route back online.

It will be help to Staten Island Ferry passengers, although I'm not sure the Whitehall Street Station could accomodate the crowds that normally are dispersed among the various lines at the South Ferry and Bowling Green stations.

------------------
Kevin Korell

Alan Burden
Member #70513, posted 10-25-01 11:15 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin,
Actually the only damage that I've heard about to the N & R, was to a small utility room off of the still closed Cortland Street station. I think the closure was due more to vibrations and the number of stations within the frozen zone. Since the frozen zone has shrunk considerably in the last few weeks, it makes it possible to reopen.

I would also agree that the Whitehall station couldn’t accommodate all of the passengers from the ferry. However, I’m sure that the Bowling Green station has been dangerously overcrowded during the past few weeks. Since the only other open station even remotely close, the Broad Street station on the J & M line, is a good six blocks away from the ferry terminal. So the reopening of Whitehall will help tremendously, even though it is likely to have overcrowding problems.

Maybe they will just have to temporarily close off the platforms for brief periods. They do this sometimes at 34th Street and 6th Avenue where riders have to transfer between lines since the Manhattan Bridge changes caused dangerous overcrowding at this station.


------------------
Alan Burden

Alan Burden
Member #70514, posted 10-25-01 11:42 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A former Prodigy BB member, Ellis Simon, has e-mailed me to let me know that he had also heard about the reopening of the N & R lines. He heard it on a different radio station than the one I first heard the story from.
I also now just heard a report from channel 4 NBC News stating that the reopening is indeed planned for Sunday morning. So even though I’ve seen nothing in print yet, it looks like this story is confirmed.

In addition NBC also ran a brief story that the MTA is now looking towards buying the PATH system from the Port Authority of NY & NJ. They stated that they are looking for federal funding to help in this effort. They hope to create a seamless system to help with the transportation problems created by the disaster. They did not say if the PA was talking with the MTA, or even interested in selling.

If this is true and comes to fruition, it would be a start down the road towards a truly seamless transportation system for the NYC - TriState area. This is something that transit advocate groups have dreamed about for years.


------------------
Alan Burden

Alan Burden
Member #70516, posted 10-26-01 08:20 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The first small news article confirming the return of the N & R can be found here.
This article also mentions that the Rector Street station may reopen within a few weeks. They however expect that the Cortland Street station, the actual WTC stop, will remain closed for sometime to come.

They also mention that average daily ridership, pre WTC disaster, on the N & R trains is over 900,000 riders per day. All of whom have had to find new ways to work for the last few weeks.

------------------
Alan Burden

Alan Burden
Member #70529, posted 10-26-01 08:55 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It’s official! The MTA has now confirmed the return of the N & R trains. This morning while waiting for my train, in addition to the normal WTC disaster diversion announcements, they also announced the return of the N & R trains.
Next the MTA’s daily WTC disaster update page confirms this. The changes will go into effect at 5:00am Sunday morning. There is however one major difference from all of the prior postings and articles. The MTA is reporting that the Rector Street station will open along with the Whitehall and City Hall stations. This will leave Cortland Street (WTC) as the only closed station on the line. Also they have posted new maps on the net, see the links below.

Finally the MTA has announced that the Park Place station on the 1 & 2 line will reopen this Sunday also at 5:00am. In addition all of the entrances from the Chambers Street station on the A & C lines will now be open. Previously you could only exit on Chambers Street, all of the other entrances were closed.

Note that Chambers Street and Park Place are free transfers. However the E World Trade Center station, which is also connected to this complex, will remain closed.


MTA Lower Manhattan Subway Map


------------------
Alan Burden

KEVINKORELL
Member #70530, posted 10-26-01 11:15 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Of significance in this coming change:
The Q, <Q>, and W trains return to their normal operations too, with all Q trains terminating at 7th Avenue/57th Street.

The W continues to serve the Astoria line in Queens, once again skipping some stops now that the N is back.

The J and M return to their normal operations. That means all J trains have their western/southern terminus in Manhattan, while M trains continue through the Montague Tunnel and run over the 4th Avenue Subway and over a portion of the West End (W) line.

Note there are some mistakes on the map, as they continue to show the J train running along 4th Avenue in Brooklyn.

Also, N trains running on the Sea Beach line will not go to Coney Island effective November 3rd. They will terminate at 86th Street. Only the F, Q, and W go to Coney Island.

------------------
Kevin Korell

KEVINKORELL
Member #70532, posted 10-26-01 11:44 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is my take on the possibility of MTA purchasing the PATH rail line:
I have heard some other scenarios for the restoration of PATH service to downtown Manhattan, but am unable to quickly find links to such tonight. One idea had a terminal located underneath the World Financial Center, in the existing tunnel. But it was dismissed quickly because it would not contain the loop that ran under the WTC, thus there would be a rush hour mess while operators change ends. It also would have put passengers too far from subway connections, all of which are under, east of, or north of the WTC site.

Another idea was to extend the PATH into the former Hudson Terminal, which itself had been replaced when the WTC station opened in 1971. I read somewhere that at least part of the station has remained intact underground, a bit east of where the WTC stood. The former Hudson Terminal could then be reconfigured with direct underground passageways for passengers to connect with the NYC subways. The tracks would have to be re-extended east underneath Ground Zero, or whatever replacement is built on the site.

Remember there is the other PATH line that runs under Greenwich Village along Avenue of the Americas, between 9th and 33rd Streets. It directly parallels the subway line along the same street. Should they fall under one agency, either one or the other would become duplicative and could be abandoned. Or looking at it the other way, capacity could be greatly increased by the additional set of tracks for Avenue of the Americas, especially once this line is again connected to the Manhattan Bridge.

There is also the matter of that stub track on the PATH line just east of the 9th Street Station. At one time it was supposed to be a branch that would run to the Lower East Side, around Astor Place. Maybe it's time to think about building that line, giving interstate passengers yet another option, and access to this part of Manhattan and the subway lines that it would intersect.
------------------
Kevin Korell

Alan Burden
Member #70536, posted 10-27-01 12:30 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Of note in the following NY Times article, is that the number of passengers passing through the Bowling Green station on a daily basis has doubled to 50,000. As the only open station in lower Manhattan for the last few weeks, its capacity had been sorely tested.

Alan Burden
Member #71109, posted 11-28-01 06:35 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The reopening of three subway stations damaged by the destruction of the World Trade Center is at least three years away, a chief engineer at New York City Transit said Wednesday.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A story from 1010 WINS News states that it will take at least three years to restore service between South Ferry and Chambers Street on the 1 & 9 line. Currently there are two scenarios being considered, with a final decision expected in December.

The first would just rebuild the line along it current route. The second option being considered would involve a new tunnel that runs west of the World Trade Center site and would serve Battery Park City. This would also allow them to build a new South Ferry station. A new station would accommodate all 10 cars on the train and would not be on a sharp curve.

In addition the article continues to go along with the general consensus that it will take Path at least two years to restore service.

Perhaps the best news in this story is the expected return of service to the Cortland Street station on the N & R lines. That station could be reopened in about six months, once new entrances are built to the southbound platform.

I have also seen a report on the local NBC news confirming this story.


------------------
Alan Burden

KEVINKORELL
Member #71111, posted 11-28-01 10:22 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree, if the line has to be totally rebuilt anyhow, why not do it right and run it closer to a population center. On its current course underneath the former WTC concourse, that will be a wasteland even when everything is cleaned out. And then should something be rebuilt on the same sight, even just a memorial to those lost there, it will be a construction zone some more.
Assuming parts of Battery Park City are habitable, it is a good idea to serve those residents with rail rapid transit. To get to it now they have to take private vehicles (not MTA-sanctioned) to the stations that are open east of Broadway, since their entry from WTC no longer exists. And then coming into Battery Park itself, the new alignment would be conditioned so that there is no longer such a short platform and such a tight loop.

The only question I have about going on a more westerly is that darn bathtub we have been hearing about. Until all debris is removed, nobody knows if the walls of the underground bathtub are going to be intact, or might have serious leaks or breaches. There could be potential for yet another catastrophe on the site if river water were to make it into tbe undergound concourses, and the existing and planned rail underground rail stations.

Has anyone ever answered the question as to why the 5 subways that normally terminate and originate at Bowling Green, why they cannot use the South Ferry Loop? I assume that from the outer, station track normally (but formerly) used by the 1/9, there is both entry and egress between the loop and the Lexington Avenue Line just south of the Bowling Green station. If the 5 could make it around the loop, then this important station can at least get some service back albeit with a later transfer to the West Side line at Broadway-Nassau and Broadway-Lafayette and the City Hall complex. And the station would be less crowded with passengers since they eventually would have a choice of 1/9 rerouted via BPC, and the 5 uptown on Lexington.

So I am for a reroute of the 1/9 westerly -- at least there will be a World Financial Center and Battery Park City, even if the WTC is not rebuilt in any form for years.

------------------
Kevin Korell

Alan Burden
Member #71112, posted 11-29-01 12:42 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kevin,
Most if not all of Battery Park City is once again open to residents. Tourists cannot get there very easily, if at all, since it is still within the frozen zone.

I would agree that the Battery Park City area could use a rerouted subway line, and yet the line would still be poised to serve anything that is built at the WTC site. The bathtub would only be a problem if it collapsed totally and destabilized the surrounding area. Any leaks would not affect a rerouted subway, since it would be outside the bathtub.

From what I heard if they were to reroute and build a new South Ferry Station, there would be no loop. It would be a regular two track, center platform station. The motorman would drop his air and then walk to the opposite end to head back uptown.

As for the 5 serving the current South Ferry station, I can think of only one reason. The 5 only goes around the loop during non-rush hour times, during rush hours it runs to Brooklyn. If they send all trains around the loop, then it deprives Brooklyn of much needed transportation. By the same token South Ferry’s demand is greatest during rush hour, not off peak when the trains are going around the loop.

There is however no physical plant reason why the 5 can’t serve the South Ferry platforms. All of the necessary track and switches to facilitate such a move are in place. I have even run around the loop and crossed over on two separate occasions, once in each direction, due to track work reroutes.

Perhaps the correct answer would be to steal several #4 & #5 train slots. Then use those slots to create a new #8 train. This way the 4 & 5 would run to Brooklyn at all times, the 8 will service South Ferry, and the public would not end up totally confused.


------------------
Alan Burden

On Wednesday I took a ride on my local subway line the #7. The closest station to me is 69th street Queens. Normally due to the height of local buildings near the station, I can only see the Citicorp building, The Empire State building, and The Twin Towers. Standing there on the platform today, but for the plume of smoke, I could not tell where the southern end of Manhattan was.

While service levels appeared to be around normal levels for 3:00pm in the afternoon, the passenger levels were less than normal. There were however, still a fair amount of passengers riding the train inbound towards the city. It was good to see that a fair amount of people were going on with life, some were going to work, many appeared to be out shopping both for food and retail shopping.

Riding in the head car of the train, I was able to look out the front window, as the train traveled closer to the city. It was definitely a surreal experience to see the anchors of lower Manhattan missing. I’m old enough to remember when there were no twin towers. The change was almost as dramatic a change to the NYC skyline as an experience I had when I was a small child.

At that time we lived in New Jersey about 20 miles west of the city. I can remember walking up a big hill near our house during the massive power failure in NYC during the 60’s. Turning to look at Manhattan and finding nothing there, where usually I could always find Manhattan. Without power you could see almost nothing, it was like some one had stolen the city. The only clue it was still there was a slight reflection of the moon in a few windows here and there.

Approaching the Queens Plaza station, one travels over Amtrak’s Sunnyside yard. I could see a normal complement of Amtrak and NJT trains in the yard. Included in the yard was what I believe was the consist for the Lake Shore Limited, those Viewliner Sleepers are very distinctive.

Leaving the Queens Plaza stop one can see the 59th street Bridge. Then as the train goes around the final curve, before diving under ground, one can see the Long Island Expressway right before it enters the Midtown Tunnel. It was startling to see that both of these major links to Manhattan, while now open, were virtually devoid of cars and trucks. Normally at this hour of the afternoon both of these arteries would be packed with cars.

I departed the train at Hunters Point station to comply with the Mayor’s wishes that people only come into town if they absolutely needed to be there. I didn’t. I then rode an outbound train back to the 74th Street/Roosevelt Ave. station. Again this train was moderately full, but again not normal for the hour, especially since it was coming out of the city. There would normally be a heavier load in this direction.

As the train returned above ground, I was now in the last car, and again looking out the window. The first thing I saw was a NJT Midtown Direct train to Dover, heading into the tunnels bound for Penn to pick up it’s passengers. Next I noticed a large electronic billboard right by the midtown tunnel was no longer flashing its usual commercial ads. It instead had a message of sympathy for all those who lost loved ones, which was alternated with a number to call should you wish to donate blood.

I detrained at 74th street and went downstairs to the underground transfer to the E, F, G, & R trains. Service here seemed a little lighter than normal, perhaps in part the R train was not operating in Queens or Manhattan. After watching around 10 trains come through the station some inbound and some outbound, my conclusion was that once again passenger loads were less than normal. They were however higher than I had expected under the circumstances.

Police presence was only a little higher than is normal for the sections of subway that I covered. People in general seemed a little somber, but they were also getting on with life and the things that they needed to do.

New Yorker’s however are a very unique lot, despite our hard shell reputation. I have heard countless stories of the goodness of my fellow citizens. Restaurants and stores that are providing free food to the rescuers, a sporting goods store owner who was handing out free sneakers to all the women walking past his store wearing high heeled shoes, people lining the main approach streets to the WTC cheering and clapping every time rescue trucks drive by. Many of who were holding signs thanking them for their efforts.

I watched the events unfold on TV, from almost the very beginning since I tuned in at about 9:05 prior to the second plane hitting. However, I can tell you that it is even stranger actually going outside to really see it in real life. I would compare it to the difference of watching a fireworks display in person vs. on television. Somehow the fireworks never seem quite as spectacular on the TV as they do in real life. While spectacular is not the correct word for this tragedy, the comparison is similar. It somehow seems to hit home all that much harder when I look at it with my own eyes and not through the lens of a TV camera.

Two good things that did come out of this disaster are currently under way in downtown Manhattan. The first is a new station that is being built at South Ferry for the #1 line. The new station will allow all 10 cars on the train to actually platform. Currently only 5 cars actually open their doors at South Ferry. The second and much more important, is the work now under way that will eventually create one massive underground complex that will allow people to easily transfer between every subway line that runs in southern Manhattan, as well as the PATH trains, without ever needing to step outside or pay an additional fare other than the transfer to/from PATH.