Here is the previous discussion, which I may build upon or repeat in this process.

We're a little under 3 months as of this writing until this summer's event, OTOL Southeast RailFest (SERF) 2011. Except for any necessary last minute refining, things are pretty much set. Hopefully those who have not yet booked their hotels or travel will do so soon, before the prices go up or the desired trips become unavailable.

What about August 2011?

An eager regular participant has asked me what's in store for the future. One possibility would be August of this year, 4 or 5 weeks after everyone is home from SERF. You may recall last year at this time we did an all-Long Island Railroad fest (with a little subway thrown in on Friday). If enough people are game, we could do another Request-type fest, somewhere else on the east coast. Perhaps a 2-day event in Boston or the Baltimore/Washington area? Or, we could ride the ACES train and combine it with some other activities in NJ (maybe the HBLRT extension in Bayonne?) or Philly since ACES no longer operates in the winter. It does remain to be seen whether people are able to meet so close to SERF, taking into consideration time off work, finances, etc.

January 2012

On the topic of the east coast, I'm almost sure that the January 2012 Request Fest will be in the Philadelphia area. Within a few months I'll release a few scenarios which folks can then vote on. Those who attended the Fests we had in Philly in 2001, 2004, 2005, and 2006 know basically what those might be (of course they would involve Chestnut Hill, Norristown, and Media!). Or, it could be an all Regional Rail option, sort of like what we did in 2004 with the ex-Reading lines hopefully without the too-tight connection in Jenkintown. All lines are candidates, but we must keep in mind the restrictions of the Cynwyd Line (weekdays only), Thorndale Line (no Sundays beyond Malvern), and Newark, DE (weekday rush hours only beyond Wilmington).

Rockies, & a possible NoCal return?

And that brings us to the larger trips during the summer. Herein lies the problem. They have all been planned for the future because the cities involved have lines under construction. Common sense indicates waiting until these projects are complete, so we don't miss them and have to return. Problem is, most of the currently planned Future Fests will not have anything significant coming online by the summer of 2012. Salt Lake City looks good with 2 new LRT lines (Mid-Jordan and West Valley) starting this summer, joining the current University and North-South (Sandy) Lines, but the Airport and Draper LRT lines are still respectively under construction and under development. FrontRunner North to Odgen & Pleasant Valley is in place, but FrontRunner South to Orem & Provo is still a few years away. The other problem with SLC remains the horrible eastbound calling time of the California Zephyr, now 3:30 AM. A possible better solution would be to stopover there on some future westbound trip to California, and then leave westbound 24 or 48 hours later. 11:30 PM is more palatable than 3:30 AM! So it would be beneficial to wait until there's more to do in both SLC and California that would warrant a return trip.

So the Rockies RailFest as currently presented most likely will change significantly, including its being totally separated from Denver. Denver, in fact, would work better as an eastbound stopover since the CZ calling times are better in that direction. If we wait until BART extends to Warm Springs, then Berryessa, and then eventually San Jose and Santa Clara, we already have quite an event on our hands! It's looking less likely that there would be much more to do in the Bay Area given the recent negative news about SMART... so more time could be spent on stopovers in both directions. Sacramento comes to mind as well with its piecemeal openings of the new Green Line, but it could be 2019 or 2020 before the line gets to the Airport. Might be worth a stopover there too.

The Big Three

Looking at the Big Three RaiFests currently planned for the future, 2 of the 3 wouldn't be possible in 2012. Texas RailFest (TRF) is dependent on completion of DART's Orange Line all the way to DFW Airport, and the extension of the DART Blue Line to Rowlett. The new Green Line and the upcoming A-Train (opening this June) would give us something new to ride, but waiting 2 or 3 more years gives us much more. Hopefully along with the Orange Line the Las Colinas people mover will be expanded and improved so we could ride that as well. TRF would also include Houston, but so far there isn't much movement towards anything other than the initial Metro Red Line segment being available to ride.

Then there's the second Eagle RailFest (ERF), which would take in Austin (both the MetroRail DMU line and the LStar commuter rail line to San Antonio), a side round trip to Oklahoma City on the Heartland Flyer, and a 24-hour stopover in Little Rock to ride their RiverRail trolley. This is dependent on LStar, so it's a few years off. And Little Rock, it should be noted, has an Amtrak station nowhere near the trolleys or the city's hotels, so cabs or city bus must come into play.

The third of the Big Three is Chief RailFest (CRF). This one currently has Albuquerque for the RailRunner, a trip on the Missouri RiverRunner, and a revisit to St. Louis to take in the Cross County segment of the Metrolink LRT that wasn't yet available to us back in 2005. Time could be added to either of the Chicago pass-throughs to do things there. It'll be a long time before we do a "Chicago Request Fest", because there's so much we haven't yet done as a group.

Back to: What's happening in Summer 2012?

So this still doesn't answer the question of what to do in the Summer of 2012. Of the Big Three, the only one with everything in place is CRF. We'll make that Idea #1.

Idea #2 would be a watered down version of the Midwest RailFest. Why water it down? As currently engineered, this one includes a visit to the Twin Cities. Northstar commuter rail is in operation, as is the Hiawatha LRT line. But there are a few other factors here. One is that the current Midway Amtrak Station is isolated between the 2 cities. Thus to get to Minneapolis proper for riding those lines (as well as hotels) would require a late night cab or city bus ride after arrival of the westbound Empire Builder, and an early morning dose of the same thing before the eastbound Empire Builder departure. By sometime next year, Amtrak is supposed to begin stopping in downtown St. Paul, which is great for proximity to hotels, but even worse with respect to our reasons for visiting (namely Northstar and Hiawatha LRT). Now it's a longer bus ride or cab ride, unless Midway Station remains open in addition to St. Paul Union Depot. The anecdote to these issues hopefully comes into play in 2014, when the Central LRT line opens. Then there will be light rail service to both the current and future Amtrak stations. And we get another rail line to ride as well. So bottom line, the Twin Cities would be several years off at least.

So this possibility would be to disconnect Minneapolis from Chicago, and just spend time at the latter, doing things we haven't yet. That list is dependent on what we ultimately accomplish there this summer. Besides remaining CTA and METRA lines, there's also the Airport Transportation System at O'Hare Airport, and the streetcars in Kenosha, WI (latter easiest done on a Sunday based on the METRA schedule). Downside of this: It robs our resident Chicagoans of Amtrak travel!

For 2012, idea #3 is the North Carolina/Virginia RailFest. This would feature light rail in both Charlotte and Norfolk (which should open sometime this year), as well as the unique equipment of Amtrak's Piedmont. As currently put together, it's just 4 days long including travel from and to Northeastern cities. I'm looking at somehow adding something to this to make it more worthwhile for a summer trip. Being tossed around are possibly Savannah, GA to ride that city's streetcars, and/or Jacksonville, FL to ride the SkyTrain. Both Savannah and Jacksonville do suffer from the same distance issues mentioned earlier regarding Amtrak stations in Little Rock and (currently) Minneapolis/St. Paul. If it's not convenient to transfer in Richmond to or from the other trains, then it may require going back up to Washington, DC, and one overnight there before going south again.

Beyond 2012

And there you have the options for 2012. Going forward to 2013, 2014, 2015, and beyond is again highly dependent on what becomes available to us. Obviously with the above 3 ideas on the table, we could be set for a few years until the longer trips become more possible and sensible.

I was able to work something out involving Jacksonville. It would involve going there on the Silver Meteor first, then taking the Silver Star to Raleigh, and then proceeding from there as indicated before on the Piedmont to Charlotte. This would eliminate a stay in Raleigh, but it would result in a very long day in Jacksonville (11-1/2 hours). There would be an overnight trip on the Silver Meteor south from Northeast cities to JAX, and then the next evening, an overnight trip on the Silver Star JAX to RGH. So net addition to this event would be one day, making for a total of 5 days. Here is how it looks.

At first glance, Savannah won't work as well as Jacksonville. Calling times in SAV are not as friendly as JAX, especially northbound #92 which leaves at 1:30 AM. Savannah has something that Jacksonville doesn't have, and that's a third Amtrak frequency to/from the north. But the Palmetto gets in too late in the evening to do much, and likewise the northbound leaves too soon. Either way, one would have to spend a full day in town plus at least one night in a hotel. And on the converse, Jacksonville has something Savannah doesn't, and that's bus service between Amtrak and downtown. JAX has 2 different routes; SAV has none. So it's taxi or long hike.

Obviously this is still too short for a summer event, so ideas on how to expand it are welcome. There's not much else in the Southeastern states to append to this plan.

Kevin,

While the last several years have seen longer summer fests, I can recall some in the earlier years that only went 3 or 4 days. So I'm not sure that you need to stand on your head trying to figure out how to turn a 5 day fest into a 6 or 7 day fest.

This is not to suggest that if something comes along that does lend itself to an extra day that we shouldn't consider it; just that I also don't know that you need to go crazy looking for that something.

All that said, one thought that popped into my mind; would it be conducive to take that regional from Norfolk only as far as Fredericksburg, overnight there and ride VRE from there back to DC? I'm too tired to go looking right now, but IIRC Fredericksburg doesn't lend itself to a same day turn on the VRE, unlike the other VRE branch and therefore the group hasn't done that. Or if hotel choices at FBG are too poor, could we overnight in Richmond, catch a semi-early regional to FBG, and then still catch VRE back to DC?

Doing so would also avoid the rather ugly calling times at Philly & NY on train #66, while getting you to a 6 day fest.

Alan, the first weekday Regional departure, #86, from Richmond leaves at 6 AM and arrives FBG 7 AM. It then would be possible to catch one of two subsequent inbound VRE departures to Washington. However think of how early one will need to arise and catch a cab to RVR station for a 6 AM train.

FBG is one of those places that has many different hotels, but they are almost all located out in clusters by I-95 exits, a few miles drive from and to Amtrak/VRE.

So both Fredericksburg and Richmond-Staples Mill share the problem with no hotels within a few blocks of the station. Richmond Main Street could be a suggestion, as #66 does stop there. But as you know continuing onward from there service is limited to only one other northbound train (#94 weekdays or #194 weekends) every day.

There is a same-day turn possible on the VRE Fredericksburg Line, but one direction has to be Amtrak. If one takes VRE #301 from WAS at 12:55 PM, it gets to FBG 2:26 PM. Then at 3:39 PM, the northbound Carolinian #80 comes through and can deposit us anywhere between Washington and NY City at a reasonable time of the evening. To do that, one would have to get off Regional #66 in ALX or WAS, spend a night & next morning in the area, and then do the VRE/Carolinian turn that afternoon. Surely this can be worked in as well.

Even if we didn't add that, and you wished to keep your event time at 5 days, you could get off #66 in Washington, and take Acela the next day to New York, giving you a much nicer arrival time than 1:50 AM.

I was of course just spitballing at this late hour and not looking at schedules. But that would be ugly IMHO trying to do that.



Bummer!



This certainly has merit and would IMHO be a more than welcome solution to riding that line as a group and solving the issues of a short fest and a late night arrival in Philly/NY.



Something that I'd almost certainly consider if the group opted for the fest as currently outlined; but that's just a personal preference. And as I said earlier, I personally don't see having a shorter than normal fest as a huge problem/issue. But I would definitely be in favor of adding the DC/VRE plan to that which you've already laid out!

A suggestion for the Chief Rail Fest: Make St. Louis the homeward overnight rather than Chicago.

The connection at KCY between the Chief (ar 7:24am) and the MRR (dp 8:15am) is iffy, at best. If a late Chief misses the morning MRR, then the only option is to wait at KCY until 4pm for the evening trip to STL. Since there is a later train from KCY to STL, Amtrak likely will not hold the morning MRR more than a few minutes for a late Chief.

With the plan to move on to Chicago on the same day as departing KCY, the misconnect at KCY then compounds to a failed onward connection to CHI at STL requiring an unplanned overnight at STL and rebooking the onward leg to CHI for the next day. It also fouls any hotel reservations in Chigago which, depending on the terms of the reservation, could cause a loss of any deposit. In other words, if the Chief is late into KCY, the manure hits the fan blades for the rest of the plan.

If an overnight is planned STL, with the onward trip to Chicago the next morning and same day connections at CHI to east coast trains, then a misconnect at KCY between the Chief and the MRR only results in the loss of the transit rides in St. Louis. The planned hotel stay in St. Louis is still good. The next day onward reservations from STL to CHI are still good. Plus, since STL through CHI to eastern destinations is continuous, an AGR award reservation could handle the trip, maybe including a roomette and meal on the Texas Eagle to CHI.

Just a suggestion.

Bill,

Very good points indeed. I was under the impression that they made the #314 departure later to resume guaranteed connections from #4, but I guess a severely late #4 would pose a problem for a waiting #314 down the line as it meets other trains.

When I get home I'll rework things (as you already have in advance!! ) for a STL stay instead of Chicago. The intent of this trip is more to get what still remains in STL rather than doing transit/commuter riding in CHI, which can eventually be accomplished on our various pass-throughs or on a distinct CHI visit as was one of my ideas.

But you're right, we'd miss the STL transit riding because if we misconnect on the intended day, we can't pick it up the next day unless we go out very early in the morning before the Texas Eagle departure. And waiting until #304 means missing the eastward connections in CHI.

Alan,

5-6 days isn't bad, though with VRE involved it becomes tricky given that segment has to be done on a weekday. Money saved on travel and hotels can be put towards longer trips in the future!

Kevin,

I fully agree that 5 to 6 days isn't bad. In fact, that was the first thing that I said.

I was simply trying to give you ideas to make it longer, since that's what you asked for in your second post in this thread. If it doesn't work, no worries!

Heck the 12 or 13 day Fests we had with NoCal, SoCal, and PNW over the past several years seem to have set the bar higher, so much that half that much seemed too short. And in reality, they all were just about 6 days if one excludes the cross country trips as I did for PNW. So what's 6 days for us would turn out to be longer for those who travel further to get there & home.

The "Big Three" as outlined above, are all 6 to 7 days, but again that is Chicago to Chicago, as they don't include getting to or from CHI for East Coasters.

Doing NC, VA, and the addition of JAX plus VRE (which is Virginia again) does bring it up to par with the others, only for those of us concentrated in the New York, New Jersey, Philly areas, our trips in getting to and from are much shorter (in fact included) in the 6 days.

We still have the 3 options mentioned above on the table, and no decision is needed right away, but it's a topic we can even discuss in person this July.

Looking at this further, it appears that in order to ensure being able to do transit rides in STL, the only reason for going there (otherwise coming back ABQ-CHI we would just remain on the Southwest Chief), we would have to stay overnight in BOTH St. Louis and Chicago. If we intentionally book #314, and then get shunted to #316 if the KCY connection is missed, it means having to wait potentially 7 or more hours in Kansas City, a city without any rail transit. Maybe we could watch grass grow or paint dry there. If we book #316, forcing ourselves into the long wait, would they let us ride #314 if the connection is made? Odds are with such a large group the number of seats available could be limited.

On the St. Louis end, taking #314 would pose no problem, as the light rail trips could easily be done in the afternoon and/or evening, we'd stay there, and then could depart next morning. #316 comes in way too late to see anything by daylight, even in the summer. But the big flaw with the Lincoln Service/Texas Eagle schedule is that 3 of the 5 trips leave STL before 8 AM, and then there is a 7+ hour gap until the next train at 3 PM. Said Train #304 would get into Chicago well after the Cardinal & Capitol Limited departures, and way too close to the Lake Shore Limited departure to be guaranteed.

So if one gets into STL at 9:40 PM, there's no time to ride Metrolink that evening, nor the following morning if we wanted to take the Texas Eagle. So it means a long day in STL, taking #304, plus an evening in a hotel in CHI, plus the next day doing things in Chicago before the eastward departures.

So the schedules do pose problems that would require more overnights to ensure we can accomplish our goals of riding certain transit. At the same time we'd have a longer stays in KCY and STL; at least at the latter there's more to do. In STL we have the newer Cross County Metrolink (Blue line) a definite goal, but there's no problem killing time riding the rest of the system in Missouri and Illinois again. I wouldn't do the Arch again, but there are other things to see and do along the light rail lines and downtown.

Another alternative is TWO nights in hotels in STL, which would allow us to arrive on #316 the first day, stay over, fulfill our transit obilgations over the next entire day, and then on the third day depart on the northbound Texas Eagle (#22/322/422) in order to easily make connections to the east.

This is doable if no conflicts with cardinals schedule. Union station Marriott often has good rates.

That assumes people will be taking the Cardinal and it's running that day. I'll assume it will remain thrice-weekly until I see it running daily with my own eyes. The new departure time of the Capitol Ltd. is not much later than the Cardinal, so that would leave the Lake Shore which is almost a sure bet. But how, Steve, will we be entertained in KCY?

I'm thinking that Steve meant the St. Louis Union Station Marriott, and the "Cardinals Schedule" is the home game schedule of the St. Louis Cardinals which can impact the cost and availability of hotel rooms.

Sorry, one track mind! I was thinking train Cardinal, not baseball Cardinals. Of course the same is a consideration in any city. In recent years we had home games during Fests in San Diego and Seattle, but managed to avoid the crowds by being at the far end of a transit line when crowds were heading to the games. I don't think we had any issues with hotel room prices or availability due to teams being in town. And Chicago has 2 teams to worry about.

Earlier in this thread (third week of April) we talked about a possible North Carolina/Virginia Fest, which would include taking the Piedmont, as well as the light rail lines in Charlotte and Norfolk. I then looked at increasing it a little bit.

There are now three scenarios.

First is Charlotte then Norfolk, then home. The very late night arrival back in Northeastern cities based on when #66 gets to Philadelphia and New York made this look unattractive. However, one could get off #66 in Washington, DC, stay overnight there, and continue northward on an Acela or Northeast Regional train the next morning. Hotel stays would be required 1 night in Raleigh, 1 night in Charlotte, and 1 night in Norfolk, and an optional one in Washington, DC if not taking #66 all the way home. Amtrak travel would be a Silver Star day trip, a Piedmont day trip, a third day trip involving the Carolinian and Northeast Regional, and a final northward trip on Northeast Regional (optionally breaking up this trip with a stay in Washington).

Second one would involve Jacksonville. It works out best if JAX were done first, and then we go up to Raleigh and proceed from there like the first option. Under this scenario, no hotels would be needed in Jacksonville nor Raleigh, since we would get to the latter the same morning as we would depart on the Piedmont. JAX would be a very long day, but two nights would be spent aboard Silver Service trains. Hotel stays for this option would be 1 night in Charlotte, 1 night in Norfolk, and the same optional stay in Washington as above. Amtrak travel would be an overnight trip on the Silver Meteor to Jacksonville, another overnight trip on the Silver Star to Raleigh, a day trip on the Piedmont, another day trip involving the Carolinian and Northeast Regional, and a final northward trip on Northeast Regional (optionally breaking up this trip with a stay in Washington).

And the third option that we discussed in the last month, and I believe in one of the Chat sessions, would be to take the first option and build onto it a Fredericksburg trip on Virginia Railway Express. Whether part of this Fest or not, the only way to do it without staying there overnight is to take VRE southbound and return on Amtrak. Aside from involving Amtrak Train #66 (which the previous two options still include), we can also do this by taking the midday VRE train from Washington to Fredericksburg, and then return on Train #80, the Carolinian. Being the last event of the Fest, those going to the Philly and New York areas could just remain on board this train and get there a lot earlier than #66 would. This option would involve an added hotel stay in Washington, DC. We could have an optional Metro ride in the morning to fill time, or just sleep late and meet at lunch. Hotel stays required for this option would be 1 night in Raleigh, 1 night in Charlotte, 1 night in Norfolk, and 1 night in Washington. Amtrak travel for this option would be the same as the first option, except the northward trip on #66 would end at Washington, and there would be another northbound trip the next day on #80 after Fredericksburg,

The revamped homepage has links to these three options.

How do we feel about these 3 possibilities, and are we set on Charlotte/Norfolk as the core for our 2012 activities? Opinions welcome here, but of course it provides the basis of discussions in person this summer at the SERF 2011 event. And what to call it? It sounds like we may have another SERF on our hands .

I like the Jacksonville part. Gives us more train time.

And as important, this option requires fewer hotel stays, which is a plus with Raleigh since the pickings are poor. And no hotels required in Jacksonville either, as we had issues once before with a shortage of affordable rooms.

But there can also be some pro's found in other choices, so I'd like to hear other "trains" of thought!

I looked at all 3 options, and still like the Jacksonville one the best. However this would work best during my spring break or during the summer. It would not work in January.

No, this isn't intended for January. Daylight would be too short for the activities planned to be enjoyable. Right now we're looking at this for summer 2012, the same week(s) we usually do things in July. It's too early to know how hotel rates & availability might be in Charlotte and Norfolk in the summer of 2012, but as a test one could plug in some sample dates at their favorite hotel chain for the period this year we'll be involved in SERF 2011 and see how things look. An alternative for Norfolk would be Virginia Beach, which has many many hotel rooms along the Oceanfront. I'm not yet sure however if HRT will run an express bus connection between the eastern end of The Tide LRT on the Norfolk/Virginia Beach border, and the VB Oceanfront. The Amtrak bus does continue beyond Norfolk to Virginia Beach a couple blocks from the ocean, so it might be useful to some in one direction. However hotel rooms by the beach in the summer may come at a premium.

The three itineraries don't yet include days of the week, but there are restrictions. If we chose the Fredericksburg option, the VRE trip has to be on a weekday. Likewise, the Jacksonville option requires us to be in town on a weekday to ride the Skyway. The rest of the Fest could be built around that, most likely to include one weekend. The other thing dependent on the day of the week would be Amtrak Regional #95 from Richmond to Newport News. On a weekend we would have to take Regional #99, which operates almost 2-1/2 hours later, resulting in a much longer layover in Richmond and a much later arrival time at respective hotels in Norfolk (or Virginia Beach). So next week I'll work out which days of the week will work for each option.

This would be great for the summer of 2012.

And next week is here. And it's done. For each of the 3 itineraries, I have now put the possible days of the week next to each day of each option. For example the Fredericksburg option would have to begin on a Saturday, Sunday, or Monday in order to get VRE in before it goes back into hibernation for the following weekend. The Jacksonville option would have to start on a Sunday, Monday, or Tuesday in order to preserve weekdays for Jacksonville Skyway as well as Regional 95.

Jacksonville sounds good, either starting on a Sunday or Tuesday, to keep the number of days one has to take off down to 4. Slight preference for Tuesday start since Friday is easier for me to take off (all my Israeli co-workers are off for their weekend that day) than Monday.

I like the Jacksonville option. I pick my last two missing links in the Amtrak system. Richmond-Newport News and Charlotte to Raleigh.

There's another item on the table now for 2012. If we ever want to ride New Mexico's RailRunner, we may have to do it soon -- as its dismantling is beginning within the next couple of months with the loss of all weekend service. How long weekday service will last with a new hostile state government is a big question mark. So some option involving the Southwest Chief might need to be invoked sooner rather than later.

Besides the "Chief RailFest" option mentioned earlier (which had some flaws with its unreliable KCY connections between the Chief and Missouri RiverRunner), another suggestion was made during last Sunday's chat session to make Albuquerque a stopover on a return trip to Southern California, thus also taking in the Expo Line first segment, the Gold Line East L.A. segment that wasn't yet open when we were there in the summer of 2009, and Angels' Flight which has since reopened. Whether ABQ would work better as a stopover eastbound or westbound is something I can work on in the days to come.

OK I've done some homework on the RailRunner schedule, and putting together a plan is very tricky based on the current weekday schedule. It's tricky in that not only do we need to travel either very early or very late in the day, but we also totally miss conventional breakfast or dinner times. This is not the full schedule, but I show below the trips that have possible returns for our purposes. Except where indicated below, the layovers in Belen or Santa Fe are 30 minutes or less.




A few notes about the above:
* The trip from Albuquerque to Santa Fe that leaves 7:23 AM requires a 2 hour 40 minute layover.
* The trip from Albuquerque to Santa Fe that leaves 5:25 PM does not have an immediate return; however it allows 1 hour 15 minutes to have dinner in Santa Fe before the next departure.

First, with the scenario of a westbound stopover, the Southwest Chief, Train #3, arrives in ABQ at 3:55 PM. This leaves time for only one activity. Assuming we have arrived on schedule, we have a little bit of time to check-in and unwind. Then we would take the 5:25 PM trip to Santa Fe, have dinner in Santa Fe, and then return on the 8:20 PM trip to ABQ. Alternatively, we could eat first in ABQ, and then take the 6:34 PM trip to Santa Fe, which have a very short dwell before returning to ABQ. On the second day, we would eat early lunch, take the 1:02 PM trip to Belen, and be back in ABQ by 2:41 PM. That leaves us about 2 hours before the Southwest Chief, Train #3, departs westbound.

Things would be a little different if had the eastbound stopover. The Southwest Chief, Train #4, arrives in ABQ at 11:42 AM. We would now have time for both legs of RailRunner in a single day. We could leave ABQ at 1:02 toward Belen, arriving back from the round trip at 2:41 PM. Then we could take the hour and a half to check-in at our hotels if we haven't already done so, and then we would take the 4:18 PM trip to Santa Fe. After only 26 minutes layover in Santa Fe, this round trip gets back to ABQ at 7:50 PM. We've entirely shot our dinnertime. However we again could have dinner in ABQ, and then take one of the subsequent turns (5:25 PM or 6:34 PM), returning on the 8:20 PM train from Santa Fe. A long day and a late night, but we will have fulfilled our goals and could sleep a little later on Day 2, as the eastbound Southwest Chief, Train #4, leaves at 12:10 PM.

Either way, it of course assumes that the Southwest Chief has arrived on schedule. A very late arrival could thwart us from doing what we came to accomplish. The only way around this would be to schedule an extra day (and 2 hotel nights), which would also create a lot of idle time and emptier wallets.

I think I have a way to build upon this thought and make it a worthwhile trip, while covering all bases in the event of a late arrival. We could go with 2 nights in ABQ, but instead of making it a stopover to or from the West Coast, make it a destination. Thus, we would arrive in Albuquerque on #3 from Chicago at 3:55 PM, with no further activities scheduled that day. Then have one full day in town to do both legs of RailRunner. On the third day, depart from Albuquerque towards Chicago on #4 at 12:10 PM. This assures that even with a very late westbound arrival, we would still have an entire day to do both legs of RailRunner.

To balance out the above trip, divorce it from the current "Chief RailFest" plan since we can't count on connections with the Missouri River Runner, and just go to & from Chicago on the Chief. The Chief RailFest name would then be applied to the above. To add a little back to this trip, on either end days within Chicago doing METRA and CTA can be added, since Chicago is by far the largest city we haven't yet aced. Chicago has plenty for us to do, and having it currently paired with Minneapolis/St. Paul when the latter is far off in the future (2014 before Central LRT and new St. Paul Depot Amtrak station are both in service) leaves a lot of Chicago rails still unexplored by us.

Meanwhile, to ensure we might be able to ride the Missouri River Runner AND visit St. Louis another time, plan a separate trip that would involve #3 CHI-KCY, stay overnight, and then we make #314 the next morning since we're already in town. That ensures we have time as well for evening activities in STL, and then we can take the Texas Eagle #22 next morning back to Chicago.

The above would work too in the opposite direction, doing STL first, then #313 that afternoon, stay in KCY and then #4 to CHI next morning.

Meanwhile, based on what was discussed in person during SERF 2011 and mentioned in the Discussing the Future thread, two scenarios have been developed for a combined Chicago/Albuquerque Fest. Assuming the Chief RailFest name for now, the two ideas have been laid out on the revised homepage. To show that neither option has any merit over the other, they are called the Purple and Orange itineraries.

As a companion action to revising the Chief RailFest as described above in Post #28, I also revised the proposed Midwest RailFest.

A way was found to salvage the lost Missouri River Runner trip and ensure time available in St. Louis to ride light rail. It would involve taking the long scenic 23-hour route from Chicago to St. Louis! Start westbound on the SW Chief to KCY, stay there, then the morning Missouri River Runner departure to STL. Return following morning on Texas Eagle to CHI to make eastward connections.

Since a connection from the eastbound Empire Builder to westbound SW Chief is impossible, there's a full weekday in Chicago in between as well. There is a very early morning round trip to McHenry, which I surmise may be highly unpopular, but I thought it would be interesting to see how many do volunteer to do such a thing to get the mileage.

St. Louis belongs on a Midwest Fest anyhow. Homepage here with link to revised itinerary.

The hardest working railfan on the Internet is at it again! As I said I might do, I've taken apart the so-called Rockies RailFest. With the poor calling times of the California Zephyr westbound in Denver (7:15-8:05 AM) and eastbound in Salt Lake City (3:05-3:30 AM), it is impossible to schedule these two cities on the same Fest. Denver has to be a stopover on an eastbound Zephyr trip, and SLC has to be a stopover on a westbound Zephyr trip.

Furthermore, with both cities greatly expanding their rail transit options, with much to come online between now and 2017, it has become apparent that each city might require not a 24 hour stopover but a 48 hour stopover since it would take more than one full day to accomplish everything. So this leaves room for expansion for each city.

For now, I've taken Salt Lake City and Denver and split them up into separate 24-hour (to probably be expanded to 48 hours once more rail lines come online and their schedules are known) Fests.

For Denver, it is based on arrival of the eastbound California Zephyr at 6:38 PM, and departure the next evening at 7:10 PM. The West LRT line and three commuter lines (East, Northwest, and Gold Lines) may cause this to go one more day. Short extensions are also planned for the C/D, E/F, and H light rail lines beyond their current termini.

Salt Lake City was rewritten with the newly color-designated and reconfigured TRAX routes effective 8/7/11, now that schedules are published for them. It too stands alone, assuming a 11:05 PM arrival on the westbound California Zephyr, and a 11:30 PM departure the next night. Again with the Sugarhouse Trolley, FrontRunner South, the Airport TRAX line and the Draper TRAX extension, we may need another day which can be added later.

From the Why-Do-I-Have-To-Think-Of-This department, I had a small revelation that might be helpful, at least for departing the SLC area to the west. The westbound Zephyr stops in Provo, UT at 9:26 PM. When FrontRunner South is completed, it too will stop in Provo. If we made that our last activity and brought our luggage along, we could board the Zephyr there instead of SLC. Since I've observed from watching my Fest-mates that the Sandman and Sleep Fairy seem to visit some of you a lot earlier on trains than they do otherwise in day-to-day life, this would be a benefit to you as you could be tucked safely under the covers before we even get back to Salt Lake City.

I suppose Provo could work too arriving westbound, if you could find lodging there and then take FrontRunner South the following morning to SLC. FWIW I've included Zephyr calling times on the SLC itinerary for both SLC and Provo.

Both of these itineraries will become part of something larger once I develop new Fests for the west coast, most likely Northern California.

All of these changes are improvements. Especially the Provo option. Were watching an artist at work.

I think on possibility for this is to ride Chicago to slc on 5. Do the itinerary, and continue west on 5 to Reno and then catch 6 eb to Denver. Do Denver, and return to Chicago.

I too have suggested that in conversations in the past.

If something can be figured out for the luggage, one could consider boarding at Provo too to get a more complete nights sleep.

If one must go to Reno, one might as well take in Donner and go all the way to Sacramento. Does not take any extra days. Some moonlight LRT riding that many like can be thrown in, properly armed of course, this being Sacramento afterall

Reno would be a same day turn, since #5 arrives 8:36 AM and #6 departs 4:06 PM that afternoon. Time to perhaps play slots, get divorced if not already, and grab lunch.

Sacramento is 21 hours and an overnight stay, as #5 gets there 2:13 PM, and #6 departs next morning 11:09 AM. Might as well be out doing moonlight riding on Sacramento's LRT since I'd be awake anyhow from the fire alarms at the hotel. But there should be plenty of sufficient daylight to ride most of the system before the outer segments quit for the evening.

So if you made the Zephyr turnaround at Sacramento, you would be one day behind where you'd be if you turned around in Reno.

Good point.

And we have already done Donner and Sacramento anyway. We have not played slot or gotten divorced or married in Reno, yet, at least most of us.

I remember the first time I went through Nevada was on Greyhound many moons ago in 79, and it made a food stop at Wendover. To my utter astonishment when I walked into the Men's Room, I found that there was a slot machine neatly set up next to each urinal! Go figure.

Make sure you pull the correct lever!!

I wouldnt mind Sacramento again. I never get tired of donner pass.

Here's an idea for Amtrak to make some money! They should get a casino license for Penn Station

At any rate, no matter what we do with Denver and Salt Lake City, it is more than a couple of years off. Too much is going on with new lines (and that's a GOOD thing!) to not wait and experience them all. 2015 seems about right for SLC, and Denver's FastTrax program should be up and running by sometime in 2017.

I think 2015 or 2016 would be the right ballpark for this trip. We will never completely get ahead of all future constructions at these two cities, since I expect both to come up with additional projects as time goes on.

For example, in the context of extremely expensive widening of I-80 through the Wasatch there has been quite a vocal view being presented in Salt lake City asking why can't a higher speed light rail line be built up the gorge to take quite a bit of local traffic off the I-80. So there is considerable enthusiasm for exploring additional corridors there. Similar is the case in Denver.

2016 would be good for Denver, provided the projects scheduled to be completed that year have opened by that time of year. According to RTD's website for FasTracks, there is currently a 4-year gap between the sets of projects scheduled to come online.

The only project scheduled to open before then is the West LRT line sometime in 2013. Then a BRT route to Boulder (which I feel should have been a branch of the commuter rail line to Longmont) opens in 2015. The latter is of no interest to us unless they change their minds and lay tracks.

The 2016 tier of routes scheduled to open:

• Central Extension: Extends what is currently the "D" route northward from 30th/Downing to 38th/Blake, where it will tie into an East Line commuter rail station.
• East Line: Electric MU commuter rail to Denver International Airport.
• Gold Line: Electric MU commuter rail to Wheat Ridge.

The next group of services has been pushed back to a 2020 projected opening:

• I-225 Rail Line: Extension of current "H" branch of LRT to Peoria/Smith station on East Line.
• North Metro Rail Line: Commuter rail (EMU or DMU not yet decided) to 162nd Avenue.
• Northwest Rail Line: DMU commuter rail line to Longmont. With the Eagle P3 project the inner portion of this line may see service earlier.
• Southeast Rail Line: Extends 2+ miles of LRT (current "E" & "F" lines) beyond Lincoln to RidgeGate Parkway.
• Southwest Rail Line: Extends 2+ miles of LRT (current "C" & "D" lines) beyond Mineral Ave. in Littleton to Lucent Blvd. in Highlands Ranch.

I can't see waiting until 2021 to do all this, so I'd say there would be enough operating by 2016 if they stick to that schedule to make an intitial visit, and then hit the city again early the following decade.

Back to the Albuquerque 2012 idea, the new weekday RailRunner timetable that goes into effect the end of this month is completely different than the current one. But it makes it easier to do round trips to both ends of the line and in fact it can be done in much less time with the new schedule. I changed this on both the orange and purple alternatives.

OK, your wish is my ........ well anyhow if anyone stayed up last night wondering what this might look like, here it is. Again depending on what's available to ride when we ultimately do this, we may need to add a second Day 3 and/or a second Day 6 -- and of course rename them accordingly.